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Posted At: 11:41pm by Sandra Ostapowich
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Today,
August 26 is an important day for women. You didn't know that either did
you? Good thing I read the latest ELCA Cafe
Hot Topic (a.k.a. "fish in a barrel") and found that out. Today
is "Women's Equality Day", or so says an act of Congress in
1971. It is also "Women's Strike Day", which must've been when
that act of congress began, inspired by "tens of thousands" of woman
protesting all across the United States...and in Paris. Today also
commemorates the passage of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution back in 1920,
when women were given the right to vote in civic elections.
Women
today can indeed be grateful for the achievements of our ancestresses. Due
to their tireless activism and undergarment burning, today women have separate
yet equal professional sports teams, are recruited to fight in military combat,
and as of this week, can abort our babies on demand with an over-the-counter
drug. Gee, thanks ladies.
Sarcasm aside, there are definitely benefits to some of the achievements of
feminism in our culture. A women may own her own property, get an
education, and pursue the career of her choice. And if she works hard
enough, wants it badly enough, and has just the right opportunities, there is
almost nothing that a woman can't do.
In this world, God created us to be in relationships with one another.
In His wisdom and love for us, He gives us vocations - relationships into which
we are placed that provide the opportunities for us to live out our faith in
service to others. And many of those vocations are not grounded in the sex
we were also given.
There are, however, another set of vocations that are inexorably linked to
being male or female. No matter what certain state laws say, no man can
marry another man and become his wife. No woman, no matter how hard she
tries, no matter the opportunities that cross her path, not even the great and
mighty Madre, can ever be given the vocation of "father."
"Pastor" is another one of those vocations that is given only to men.
But many Christian denominations do ordain women. The last statistics I
saw about a year ago stated that the majority of students at ELCA seminaries
seeking ordination were female. These women, like Ms. Gorges, the author
of this Cafe article, usually herald this as another victory of feminist
"gospel" reductionism over sexist inequality in church leadership that
would keep women from "rightfully" being ordained.
Ms. Gorges writes, "I believe that Jesus' commandment that we love one
another permits no inequality, no injustice, and no sexism. I know that Jesus
surrounded himself with strong women — women he trusted, women he listened to.
Some financed much of his ministry; some were called disciples. For me, the
messages of inequality in the Bible are surpassed by the ones that liberate us.
I cannot ignore the harsh words I find in the Bible; I simply cling to a gospel
of love that utterly transcends them."
The problem is that our understanding of equality is not the same as
God's. We are all equal in Christ. When it comes to our salvation,
the only "label" that matters is whether you are in Christ or apart
from Christ. Nothing else matters - not your age, your sex, your race,
your ethnicity nor your economic status. We're all equal there. But
in our relationships with one another, there are significant differences.
All of these things matter. "Equality" doesn't even enter into
the picture. We would be foolish to sweep them under the rug and pretend
they don't. Unfortunately, women often play up a double standard of
heralding the achievements of feminism and the independence of women and how we
are really just like men, sometimes better. But then when it's convenient,
women will resort to claiming victim status or the need for special
accomodations be made simply because they are women.
God
doesn't play by our rules or our sense of justice. He loves us too much to
do that. When He sends His Son to die for all our sins, we complain that
it's not fair that even that other guy's really bad sins are forgiven in Christ
too. We decry the injustice that really nice people, like Mahatma Ghandi,
who loved mankind and wouldn't hurt a fly are condemned and truly evil people,
like Jeffrey Dahmer, who did horrific and unspeakable things to other people and
reportedly came to faith in Christ alone for salvation before their death might
be forgiven for their sins and live eternally in Christ. That's just not
fair. Thank God.
However, the real injustice is advocated by Ms. Georges. Women are the
crown jewels of creation. We are the culmination of God's creative
work. We are God's gift to man. To strive for equality with men in
the world is to despise what it means to be a woman in God's eyes. Women
submit to the sacrificial love of the men given to care for them not out of fear
or the Law, but out of faith which expects nothing but good from our heavenly
Father, our earthly fathers, our Bridegroom and our bridegrooms. Our
Father has not withheld anything necessary or good from us, even when it costs
the death of His only-begotten Son to save us from our sins. Our
Bridegroom has given His very lifeblood for us, taking upon Himself all of our
sinfulness and swapping it out for His righteousness. Faith tells us that
the men given to care for us in similar earthly ways will do so too.
But when we take our eyes off Christ, we don't see things that way at
all. We are tempted to see things like Ms. Georges does, who laments,
"I was cast as an angel in the nativity play so often because I was a girl.
The boys had more choices. A boy could be an angel, a shepherd, a wise man,
Joseph, or the innkeeper. When I think about the future, I wonder if I will be
able to help the girls in my future congregation surpass the limits that bound
me. I hope they will learn that their gifts are not unwelcome because they are
girls."
When
I think about the future, I wonder if I, by the grace of God and the working of
the Holy Spirit, will be able to help the girls in my congregation see the truth
of who they are in Christ. I hope they will learn that they have been
lovingly chosen to receive the gift of being created women and seek to serve
their neighbors through the unique vocations they are given. But most
importantly, I pray that they will remain faithfully receiving God's gifts for
them in Christ delivered in His Word and Sacraments.
Edited on: August 26th, 2006 11:46 pm
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Posted On: August 29th, 2006 at 8:38pm by Matt
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Sandra,
Thanks for a well written article about "equality."
One thing that I thought of whenever I read the comments of Ms. Gorges is that she is not following the Gospels at all (I know...duh!) but she is following the words of the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas. At the end of this "gospel" Peter asks what Christ is to do with Mary Magdalene upon the arrival of the "Kingdom of Heaven." Christ replies, "She must be made man so that she is able to embrace the kingdom."
I know...before you say something like "uh..." Let me explain. It seems as though she wants to be a man. She is obviously infatuated with carrying out the vocation of a pastor (which is known by God and us through the Bible). It seems as though she wants to liberate females into fulfilling the male vocations in the church. Even so mch so that girls would be able to play Joseph, the Wise Men, etc. Although, I surprised she didn't say anything about playing the blessed mother of Christ.
I know this was kind of an offbeat response to a very well written blog entry, but it is something that came up in my head whenever I was reading your post.
Thanks.
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Posted On: August 30th, 2006 at 10:50am by MaDDoG
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Thank you for reminding the ladies that by design they are crown jewels. As Dr. Luther points out, "of no man could it ever be said, 'He is the Mother of God'"
MaDDoG
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Posted On: August 30th, 2006 at 1:14pm by anonymous
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It's interesting that we are all called as Christians to be "Christ-like." Jesus came as servant to all, and in being "Christ-like" we are to follow his lead. Yet, some folk want to deny women the right to follow this lead by declaring them to be "jewels" and above servanthood. I say, let the women truly be Christ-like servants, and let them serve by leading worship, especially when called by God to do so. I've been in worship services led by women who truly reflect the love/Word of God to the assembled, better so than some of the men I've worshipped with.
But, I suppose women can be servants to all by performing the all-important tasks of making the coffee and bringing the doughnuts, right? ;)
What this debate centers on is interpretation of scripture, with two legitimate methods of approaching scripture differing on this point. As it always does, this debate results in proof-texting on either side of the debate, with both sides talking over the other one. Why not appreciate the fact that both sides are doing their best to live out their understanding of Scripture, and let it be? The fact that denominations outside of the LCMS allow women to be be pastors does not in any way detract from the message of God's love found in the Gospel.
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Posted On: August 30th, 2006 at 10:19pm by MaDDoG
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This ought to be interesting. MaDDoG thinks someone might have mis-underestimated Madre. He waits and watches.
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Posted On: August 30th, 2006 at 11:31pm by Madre
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It's interesting that we are all called as Christians to be "Christ-like." Jesus came as servant to all, and in being "Christ-like" we are to follow his lead.
Christ is FAR more than an example for "good behavior". Jesus served all of humanity by dying for our sins and submitting His will to His Father's, even unto death on the Cross.
Yet, some folk want to deny women the right to follow this lead by declaring them to be "jewels" and above servanthood.
Right? We have NO rights before God. I'm not just calling women the jewels of creation like I'm serving up a square of dung and telling you it's a brownie. Women are not above servanthood either. I never said that. Women are given unique gifts of service and specific neighbors to serve. "Pastor" just is not one of them.
I say, let the women truly be Christ-like servants, and let them serve by leading worship, especially when called by God to do so.
A woman truly being a Christ-like servant would not despise the gifts she has been given and seek after ones she hasn't. A pastor is not just "leading worship", he is standing in the stead and by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. He is representing the Bridegroom before the Bride and preparing us for the wedding Feast to come. No woman, no matter how she feels, is called by God to be a pastor. He says He doesn't do that in His Word.
I've been in worship services led by women who truly reflect the love/Word of God to the assembled, better so than some of the men I've worshipped with.
What does that mean??
But, I suppose women can be servants to all by performing the all-important tasks of making the coffee and bringing the doughnuts, right?
Sure. That's a very important task. I didn't realize the importance of a person's service was based upon the attention they received for doing it.
What this debate centers on is interpretation of scripture, with two legitimate methods of approaching scripture differing on this point.
I disagree. One is consistent with Scripture, one is not.
As it always does, this debate results in proof-texting on either side of the debate, with both sides talking over the other one.
What debate? What both sides? Who am I talking over?
Why not appreciate the fact that both sides are doing their best to live out their understanding of Scripture, and let it be?
Because both cannot be right and faithful to Scripture.
The fact that denominations outside of the LCMS allow women to be be pastors does not in any way detract from the message of God's love found in the Gospel.
This author claimed to speak for "Lutherans". She does not. She doesn't even present Scripture truthfully. She picks and chooses what she likes and runs with that, dismissing the rest. And yes, a woman standing in the place of my Bridegroom DOES detract from the message of God's love for me in Christ. If those passages you and she so conveniently dismiss in favor of nicer things that you happen to like (like this abstract "Gospel") then how can I trust that God meant those passages too? It IS important.
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Posted On: August 31st, 2006 at 11:44am by anonymous
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Madre writes:
"Christ is FAR more than an example for 'good behavior'. Jesus served all of humanity by dying for our sins and submitting His will to His Father's, even unto death on the Cross."
I didn't deny that -- in fact, that point was never even brought up. Instead, I am bringing attention to what it means to be Christian -- to be "Christ-like." Please don't change the subject and accuse me of saying something I didn't.
"Right? We have NO rights before God."
You are confusing God with the Church, something I would expect better of from a Lutheran. In the assembled church (which, of course, is an unholy, human institution), we *do* have both rights and responsibilities. For most Christians, part of those responsibilities includes treating all people equally, both sinners and saints. And, as it happens, women are purposefully given a lower status than men in the LCMS. You're fine with that, which is great since you are an LCMS member. Others, however, don't agree that is right, which is why they belong to church bodies who allow women's ordination.
"Women are given unique gifts of service and specific neighbors to serve. 'Pastor' just is not one of them."
I disagree, and so does the majority of Christians. Our understandings of Scripture and its Gospel message recognize the calling to pastoral ministries for people regardless of gender.
"A woman truly being a Christ-like servant would not despise the gifts she has been given and seek after ones she hasn't."
Good thing that isn't what's happening in these churches.
"No woman, no matter how she feels, is called by God to be a pastor. He says He doesn't do that in His Word."
I don't read that anywhere [so, as I mentioned before, feel welcome to begin your "proof-texting"]. Are you denying the calling that these women receive? What makes their calling any different than your calling as a woman leading a youth group? You understood your calling to be what you are. They understand their calling to be what they are. They are not part of your church organization, so it really shouldn't be any of your concern.
I wrote: "I've been in worship services led by women who truly reflect the love/Word of God to the assembled, better so than some of the men I've worshipped with", to which Madre replied: "What does that mean??"
It means simply that some women can do a better job than some men in pastoral leadership responsibilities. Some people have the God-given gift of pastoral ministry, some people do not. God does not seem to base this on a particular gender, so neither should we, in my opinion.
I wrote: "What this debate centers on is interpretation of scripture, with two legitimate methods of approaching scripture differing on this point", to which Madre replied: "I disagree. One is consistent with Scripture, one is not." Then, I wrote: "Why not appreciate the fact that both sides are doing their best to live out their understanding of Scripture, and let it be?", to which Madre replied, "Because both cannot be right and faithful to Scripture."
This is why even attempting to have a discussion like this always fails. I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture, but yet I can still recognize you as a fellow Christian attempting to be faithful to Scripture as you understand it. In my opinion, we can attempt to have a discussion about Scripture and the way it is lived out in our Christian communities -- that is part of Christian fellowship and Christian love. You, however, don't seem to acknowledge the same in those Christians who believe differently than you do. We are Scriptural, just like you are. We are faithful to Scripture, just like you are. Our interpretations are different based on our understandings. Only God knows who's "right", so why get worked up about what church bodies other than your own is doing?
"This author claimed to speak for 'Lutherans'. She does not."
Yes, she does -- just not *your* type of Lutherans. I don't remember her ever saying her viewpoint is the accepted viewpoint of *all* Lutherans. Like it or not, ELCA members and clergy *are* Lutherans. Even those in the LCMS who agree with women's ordination (and yes, there are lots of them) do not automatically lose the right to be called "Lutheran" because of this belief.
"She doesn't even present Scripture truthfully. She picks and chooses what she likes and runs with that, dismissing the rest."
You mean exactly the same as what those who disallow women's ordination do in *their* proof-texting? Be sure to check that eye for a log before picking dust out of others' eyes...
"And yes, a woman standing in the place of my Bridegroom DOES detract from the message of God's love for me in Christ."
Simple solution -- don't worship in a church where women are in the pastoral ministry. Your problem is solved.
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Posted On: August 31st, 2006 at 11:15pm by John Pawlitz
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Thanks for the post. I guess we have to be careful with the somewhat banal premises of egalitarianism.
I don't think Madre believes what she does out of contempt for people who don't. If this really were a contest of one understanding versus the other, than well, perhaps it should be conducted with more of an emphasis on fairness. But often times, Christianity is a struggle between our understanding and the Word, in which we cannot argue between our understandings. In all circumstances, even the most rigidly correct doctrine has to be submitted under the Word.
It is fairly obvious when people have not learnt to value the word more than cultural whim. Yes, it is true many Christians think that women not only can preach but ought to preach. But if such are the odds stacked against the traditionalist LC-MS approach, that ought to be more admonition to be even more careful about how we handle it, rather than simply agreeing to anything that is popular.
Thanks for the discussion. As much as it is sometimes a painful subject to have to talk about in the LC-MS, it was edifying to read the post and comments.
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Posted On: September 01st, 2006 at 9:16am by anonymous
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John Pawlitz wrote:
"I don't think Madre believes what she does out of contempt for people who don't."
Hi John,
I also don't think she did either. What concerns me most, however, is exactly what I posted most recently: That discussions such as these always break down because one side (or sometimes both) refuses to recognize that those with differing beliefs are being Scriptural as well. By representing one viewpoint as the *only* Scriptural viewpoint, an individual instantly negates the possibility of having a discussion centered on Christian love and concern. Yes, I disagree with Madre's interpretation of Scripture in this case; I can still understand how she came to her belief and how she is doing her best to be truthful to Scripture as she sees it. In order to fully discuss and not demonize the opposing viewpoint, she would also have to understand that those who believe differently from her are also attempting to be truthful to Scripture as they understand it. It is quite clear that she isn't ready to do that (note, especially, the title "Shooting Fish in a Barrel" in her discussion of doctrine, practices and publications of other Lutheran bodies with which she disagrees). Triumphalism such as this is certainly not the message of the Theology of the Cross.
John also writes:
"But if such are the odds stacked against the traditionalist LC-MS approach, that ought to be more admonition to be even more careful about how we handle it, rather than simply agreeing to anything that is popular."
Good point. But, it is also valuable to remember the lessons of history, especially as it centered around those who used Scripture proof-texting to defend American slavery. Yes, it is good to be careful and not jump to a decision, but for the love of the Gospel, a church body should also not stop or hinder discussions of such importance as Biblical interpretation and the living out of the Gospel and the message of Jesus in our world today.
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Posted On: September 01st, 2006 at 10:46pm by John Pawlitz
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I would be curious to know exactly which discussions always break down? It is rather a universalized statement, or if not, one that would be worth pinpointing for further analysis.
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Comment on entry entitled "Equality Shmequality"
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