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Posted At: 6:07pm by Sandra Ostapowich
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Rev Linda Clawson
449734 E 356 Rd
Afton, OK 74331
Current Assignment:
Saint Paul Lutheran Church
Fairland, OK
Position: Serving Member Congregation
Since: 5/22/2005
District: Oklahoma District
Classification: Commissioned-Lay Minister
Education
Concordia University (LCMS) - Mequon, WI
Bachelor of Arts 12/1/2004
* Major: Unknown
* Minor:
LCMS Online Directory Listing:
http://heh.pl/&1uP
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Posted On: August 18th, 2005 at 6:23pm by Stephens
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Rev. LINDA Clawson? Comissioned LAY-minister? What has the Synod come to?
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Posted On: August 18th, 2005 at 7:10pm by Madre [ + ] |
Just think. You, too, ladies, can go from Church
Council Secretary to Commissioned Lay-Minister with the title Rev and everything.
http://heh.pl/&1uN
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Posted On: August 18th, 2005 at 8:32pm by Matt [ + ] |
It could be a typo.
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Posted On: August 18th, 2005 at 8:37pm by Madre [ + ] |
Yes it could be. Just like the one that occurred in the DTBL Conference Book with my name. I look forward to a good, reasonable explanation for it.
I'd also like to know when and where the senior pastor at that church got his MDiv because only a Bachelor's degree is listed for his name.
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Posted On: August 18th, 2005 at 9:25pm by Matt [ + ] |
Maybe he got it offline. If remember correctly, you can go to a certain website and registered for an ordination certificate. :)
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Posted On: August 18th, 2005 at 11:19pm by CKirk
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When did the LCMS start having female comissioned lay ministers, or is that another accident possibility?
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Posted On: August 18th, 2005 at 11:31pm by Stan Lemon [ + ] |
FYI, about the Pastor and a bachelors degree...
Back in the day the alternate route guys who went to Springfield received a B.Min. My DP is an example of that.
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Posted On: August 18th, 2005 at 11:35pm by Paul
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Yeah, I even know of certain university presidents who were formally presdients of various seminaries that have their M.Div's through various non-Lutheran schools.
I am hoping so much this is just a typo. I did notice it was listed twice though. Once under this persons heading, and then also in the directory info for that particulat congregation, which listed her under rostered staff as, "Rev."
Best construction says, "It has to be a typo." Which is what I have to believe, cause otherwise, I'd be in a real bad mood right now.
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 9:14am by Matt [ + ] |
Over on LQ, an individual emailed Ms. Clawson. Linda's response indicated it was a typo. Whether or not she is a commissioned lay minister was unanswered. Here is a link to that thread...
http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/discus.cgi
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 11:45am by FemLem1
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stil, typo on the "rev" or not; If she is in fact a commissioned lay minister, is that given for her to do? i didn't think it was, but i don't know much about the lay minisery (though i thought it was too great either). trying really heard not to type in bold and all caps...
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 12:34pm by revcwirla
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Chill time. It's apparantly a typo, like the DTBL conference book. Here's the lowdown from the IC:
Good Morning!!
Thank you for contacting the Church Information Center. Your concern about the listing of Dr. Linda Clawson in the LCMS Church Worker Locator as Rev. Linda Clawson also concerned us.
We have found that this was simply due to a data entry error in the Rosters and Statistics database that provides the data to the Locator. The error has been corrected and Church Worker Locator has been updated.
Wishing you God's peace as you worship and give thanks to Him for the gift of His Son Jesus.
LCMS Church Information Center
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 5:28pm by Paul
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Sure, that's a typo, no problem. I got a "Rev. " put on me a couple times here and there.
My biggest problem is the following: what in the heck is the point of this so called "lay minister?" What does a lay minister do - besides serve as a complete contradiction in terms?
That program just needs phased out, no other way around it. If you want someone to do hospital visits, specialized care, etc, hire a deaconess. If you want a Lutheran day school teacher, hire a teacher.
The whole concept of this called "lay ministry" business is just completely ridiculous.
Beyond as much, where does a doctorate come from when one has just received a bachelors degree in 2004? Or is that information also a mistake? There are a few more questions rolling around in my mind related to this, and the whole concept of "lay ministry," which ought to be addressed for the rest of the synod as well.
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 7:24pm by revcwirla
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For the record: Here is the e-mail I received.
Dear Mr. Cwirla,
Thank you for your note.
Please know that I have contacted the LC-MS website with the following note:
I have been notified by others that I have been listed under "Church Workers" as Rev. Linda Clawson. I believe this to be in error, and it would probably put many minds to rest if this were corrected. As I forgive this error, so shall I forgive some of the things that my brothers and sisters in Christ are saying about me because of this error. Christ died for the sins of us all. Dr. Clawson Contested website error: http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/locators/nworkers/w_detail.asp?W1055763
You may send this note to anyone else who is concerned about this obvious error.
Blessings through He Who loves us all,
Linda
Dr. Linda Clawson
Lay Minister
St. Paul's Lutheran Church
lindyclaw@aol.com
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 7:32pm by revcwirla
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The term "minister" (diaconos) in the NT does not refer to what we today call "pastor" (that would be either presbyteros or episcopos). However, in our dogmatic tradition, "minister" tends to refer to "pastor," which is where the problem begins. Are we speaking Scripturally or traditionally?
Minister can be understood in a wide sense as "servant," in which case a modifier is needed: "lay" as opposed to "ordained" servant.
Minister can be understood in a narrow sense as "pastor," in which case no such modifier is needed.
In my opinion, it would be better for us and for the whole church if we would dispense with the ambiguous term "lay minister" and use the historic and catholic terms "deacon" and "deaconess" to cover all non-sacramental areas of service in the church.
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 8:53pm by FemLem1
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"If you want someone to do hospital visits, specialized care, etc, hire a deaconess."
Why a deaconess? why couldn't a deacon do that? or why not the pastor tend to his parishioners? :)
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 9:02pm by Matt [ + ] |
"Why a deaconess? why couldn't a deacon do that? or why not the pastor tend to his parishioners?"
Why not a deaconess? Why can't she do hospital visits? Can't a pastor receive assistance from these fine women? It is not like they will administer communion. Just a prayer and a visit...last I looked women are allowed to do that.
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 11:52pm by Paul
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See, when I think of the term "lay minister," what comes to my mind are the people that are doing Word and Sacrament ministry without a rite vocatus- a la the Wichita convention's recession of the Augsburg Confession.
This everyone a minister stuff is silly-speak, and where the LCMS really started to get into a lot of its current problems wrt Church and Ministry. Marquart's book on the Church and Her Ministry speaks well to that. There are not several ministries, only one. I've seen many a good argument contending that the diaconos is simply a different "rank" of the one clergy office...though I remain unconvinced 100%, so I'm not sure that I see that as some kind of "lay" office.
I guess my overall point is what need do we have for this position at all? If the position is anyway doing "extension" work of the one Office of the Holy Ministry, it needs to cease usurping the authority of others. If it is not, then what exactly is the whole point.
If we're going to use "minister" in such a generic way, then we all ought to be called minister I content. I can be Minister of Signs because I'm responsible for making sure the big welcome sign out at church is up to date. And my Mom can be Minister of Preschoolers since she's the PreSchool director. Oh, but I can also be Minister of Music because I'm the organist, and now I'm the new church secretary, so I can be Minister of Records, so now I've got two "ministers" up on other people.
Such language is totally unhelpful, as it ultimately leads people into thinking they are some sort of "extension" or "auxiliary office" of the One office of the Public/ Holy Ministry, which is of course untrue.
Besides as much, I picked up some of the literature at convention regarding this "lay ministry" program, and its very clear to me that it sees itself as creating people to serve in the capacity of pastor, without actually calling and ordaining them.
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Posted On: August 19th, 2005 at 11:58pm by Paul
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I was asked:
Why a deaconess? why couldn't a deacon do that? or why not the pastor tend to his parishioners?
Please don't misread me. I don't intend to say a pastor shouldn't be doing those things cause I think he ought to as part of his holding the Office, as shepherd to his flock. What I meant to say is that I fail to see the need for any position with the title "lay minister" attached to it at all, since anything that might fall into that category already has other positions to take care of it. In other words, what would a "lay minister" actually be doing that is already being fulfilled by a deaconess or school teacher or elder, etc, etc? That was my point.
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Posted On: August 20th, 2005 at 9:43am by revcwirla
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Oscar Feucht's book "Everyone a Minister" used the term "minister" in the wide sense where it was previously understood only in the narrow sense within the LCMS. When you make a semantic shift like that, you create confusion. This is a very important book to understand how we got to where we are today.
While "Minister of Signs" sounds kind of dumb, Great Britain uses the term for all areas of government service: Finance Minister, Defense Minister, Homeland Security Minister, Education Minister etc. There the word "minister" is being used in the wide sense of "servant" and requires a modifier for specificity.
Every Christian has a ministry, that is, a vocation of service. But not everyone's vocation is the ministry of Word and Sacrament. That is given to called and ordained pastors.
Words are very important, aren't they?
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Posted On: August 20th, 2005 at 1:01pm by Madre [ + ] |
This idea of everyone having a "ministry" makes sense if you go at it from a vocational approach. However, in my opinion, it's become so overused that people don't even think about Word and Sacrament ministry as being anything remotely different from any others. In one sense it is just another vocation, but in another it's a special, holy vocation gifted with unique authority in Word and Sacrament ministry (note I said the vocation, the Office is gifted with the authority, not the person of the man who is placed in it).
That said, I'm glad the confusion over Dr. Clawson's title has been cleared up. Having been given the "honorary" title recently, I daresay it wasn't as much fun for her as it was for me and those who saw it.
Some questions remain, however, particularly regarding her and her pastor's education. But that's just curiousity too. Nevermind the whole question of "lay ministry" and appropriateness of women serving in that role...
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Posted On: August 20th, 2005 at 1:09pm by Madre [ + ] |
On a related note:
http://www.cuw.edu/Undergraduate/lay_ministry.html
I believe this would be the program Dr. Lawson completed to earn her recent Bachelor's Degree from Concordia Mequon.
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Comment on entry entitled "The latest addition to the LCMS Roster..."
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