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Posted At: 3:26am by Sandra Ostapowich
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"So what then would be the Gospel answer be to women's ordination? You can do it. In Christ there is neither male nor female."
Madre peeks her head out of her purple-festooned October blogservance of Domestic Violence Month.
Huh?
What in the world is THIS? Marie? Marva? Julie? Dot? No, Petersen.
To the question of whether women can/should/ought/may/are permitted to be ordained, Petersen adopts a strawman argument of the standard liberal, gospel reductionist position that uses Galatians 3:28 as its primary hermeneutic on this issue and spins that as "Gospel".
Surely CyberStones knows better.
The Gospel response on the issue of women's ordination is not the antinomian, "You can! Go for it - you're FREE!" It is that women are too important to be ordained. God, in His infinite wisdom has gifted us in Christ with vocations that are specific to our sex.
Sure, in Christ we are all the same - baptized, forgiven, saved. That's how God sees us - in Christ. That's all that matters, that we are in Christ, that we are baptized and clothed in Christ's pure white garments. Whether we are red and yellow, black and white, XX or XY, employer or employee, Hoosier or Gopher (or even Tiger), what matters to the Father is that we are in His Son.
That covers the relationship between us and God. We still live in this world where we relate to one another. Our generous, thoughtful, loving Father hasn't left us to fend for ourselves here either. He gives us vocations, places us in relationships with one another, where we care for and serve each other, living out the baptismal faith that we have been given. One of the ways He does this is by carefully knitting our mother's and father's DNA together at the moment of conception to create us as male or female. He doesn't just flip the cosmic coin - heads you're a girl and tails you're a boy. He made me female in full view that I would be given certain feminine vocations. He made my brother male, fully cognizant that he would be given different male ones.
Sure, for some vocations the male/female thing doesn't matter: citizen, student, employee, child (as opposed to parent), etc. But for others, it does: daughter, wife, mother; son, husband, father...pastor. These just aren't given to be done by a person of the opposite sex.
The feminist sinner in us sees that list and notices that one sex's list is longer than the other. NO FAIR! We see that extra little opportunity for one team and start ticking off reasons it should be shared by both sexes. I can speak in public, I can write a sermon, I can lead a worship service, I can administrate a church, I can teach confirmation, anything a man needs to do as a pastor, I can do just as well.
What we forget is that in our insistence that we are just as good and capable of pastoring as men, we ladies are dissing the vocations that God has given us. We completely miss the very important gifts that God does give us as women.
What is so special, so unique, so Gospelly about being made women is that we are made to be receivers. Like men we are made human to receive love and care from God. Our confessions explain faith as receiving gifts from God. But women were created to also receive love from the men for whom they are given. That's what submission and having a head is about - trusting that the men given to love and care for us are doing so.
Look at all the gifts God has for us to receive on Team XX from GOd and from our men! Why would anyone want to give that up to be one whose vocation is specifically to give out God's gifts for His people? Contrary to the popular idea, it is indeed more blessed to receive than to give - particularly when the gifts are God's forgiveness, life, and salvation in Christ.
And that's the Gospel answer to "women's ordination".
Edited on: October 20th, 2005 3:31 am
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Trackbacked On: October 20th, 2005 at 3:44am |
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That's right, the Gospel. Wow, it's just pouring out all over the blog world today. Especially with Padre and Madre. Wow, |
Posted On: October 20th, 2005 at 10:01am by TripletThree [ + ] |
Thank you for an excelllent post! :o)
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Posted On: October 21st, 2005 at 8:15am by Paul Gregory Alms [ + ] |
Come on, now,. Pr. Petersen was not advocating for women's ordination. Lets be careful with the stones we throw and the implications of our words. He was simply using women's ordination as an example where the "Gospel" is used to justify an evil, an instance where the Gospel is used and perverted to mean permission to do what whatever we want.
The Gospel is misused in this way all the time and Pr. Petersen was right to call attention to the abuse. Homosexuality is another issue where the Gospel is used to justify sin. Ther is no simple unitary Gospel answer to the sin of homosexual actions and inclinations. God says no (law!) to homosexuality( or stealing or pride or whatever) he does not say yes. His love includes this law which terrifies the sinner and drives him to the Gospel.
You write :
The Gospel response on the issue of women's ordination is not the antinomian, "You can! Go for it - you're FREE!" It is that women are too important to be ordained. God, in His infinite wisdom has gifted us in Christ with vocations that are specific to our sex.
Vocations are not Gospel, they are law. Your vocation is not forgiveness; it is the arena in which you do good works. Vocations are God's commands to you to do good works here in this place. Ultimately your voaction accuses you. You are not a good enough wife, daughter etc.
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Posted On: October 21st, 2005 at 11:21am by Matt |
Sandra,
Where do you get the Bible verse that shows that women are too important to be ordained? It is a noble thought that is full of the forgotten chivalry, but I am not sure how women are too important to tackle certain vocations.
No, I am not starting a pro-woman ordination platform. I don't buy the whole "women are too important" spin (unless I am given a clear Scriptural support of this way of thinking). I don't like women ordination because it goes contrary to God's Word. I am sure that Pr. Peterson thinks the same way as well. It is in my best construction that he wasn't advocating women ordination, but using it as an example to discuss law and gospel questions and answers.
I am also not sure if I buy the "women are receivers" view completely too. I think we are all recievers of God's gifts. However, it is the male pastors that deliver the gifts for God.
Have a blessed weekend!
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Posted On: October 21st, 2005 at 1:14pm by FemLem1 |
Matt,
I take Eph 5:25-27 to say that women are too important. "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church..." Did Christ not see the church as more important than Himself? Did he not esteem her so much that he humbled himself to come to Earth, live perfectly, and die for her, so that she might be saved from the wages of sin that awaited her? as much as Christ loved his church, so should women be loved. That having been said, why would women want to work as a pastor, as a servant? Honsetly, it's beneath them to do so.
As far as women being recievers, yes men receive the Lord's gifts as women do, but they (men) are given to be givers. "Husbands, love your wives...." (as in give them love) "... For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two willbecome one flesh." (Eph. 5:25, 31). She is doing all the receiving here. She didn't leave her family; he came to her. He gives up his life for her (both as a man leaves his life behind to join to her or as Christ gives up His life for the church). And in the way Christ treats his bride (the church) he is continually giving and she is continually recieving: His words, His Body, His Blood, His Blessing, His Forgiveness. Does she ever give anything back? Nope (besides, what could the church give that God would want? HE'S GOD! he doesn't need our praise, our obedience, etc.) Women's role as receivers is defined by what is given for men to do, to love their wives "... just as Christ loved the Church."
Valete~FL1
ps - The Church's One Foundation is a pretty good summary of the gifts Christ gives his bride ~FL1
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Posted On: October 21st, 2005 at 2:31pm by Jane [ + ] |
I have a really, really hard time with the idea that God has set us above men. Ephesians 5:22-33 uses words like "submit" to describe the way we as women relate to our husbands. And yes, it does say that they are to love us as Christ loved the church, sacrificially. But I don't see how you can get superiority or "too important" out of this.
And how is a pastor's vocation "lower" than any other? It is not given to us to be pastors (or fathers!), but that doesn't mean it's beneath us!
Being a wife is a wonderful vocation, full of blessings. So is being a mother. And equally wonderful are the vocations of husband, pastor and father. And best of all, whether you are male or female, is being a baptized child of God and a member of the Bride of Christ, the Church.
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Posted On: October 21st, 2005 at 2:50pm by Bloghardt |
I take Eph 5:25-27 to say that women are too important. "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church..." Did Christ not see the church as more important than Himself? Did he not esteem her so much that he humbled himself to come to Earth, live perfectly, and die for her, so that she might be saved from the wages of sin that awaited her? as much as Christ loved his church, so should women be loved. That having been said, why would women want to work as a pastor, as a servant? Honsetly, it's beneath them to do so.
St. Paul says that we are to share all good thing with the one who instructions us...
FemLemOne, you have shared a great confession with the one who instructs you. Thank you for the wonderful post and the little gift to your younger pastor.
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Posted On: October 21st, 2005 at 2:57pm by Bloghardt |
Come on, now,. was not advocating for women's ordination.
Here is the problem...
I don't like identifying people, it becomes ad hominem. I wouldn't have said who I was posting against had not the pebble-thrower asked me specificially to mention him. In fact, I don't like using names..
Cause when you use names, friends feel it necessary to defend buddies. Then, it's who is who and the discussion is lost.
Clearly, this faithful pastor isn't for women's ordination. But, he inadvertently misrepresented how women's ordination is explained in "the way of Gospel." I expect so much more from such a great pastor!
What's most disturbing is ANY pushing of the idea that the Gospel is "do whatever you want." That's not the Gospel answer. That's not my Gospel. It's not how I explain the role of women in the church.
In fact, it's not how anyone - even the liberals - talk about the role of women (grin).
FemLemOne's answer is just splended.... wow, what a wonderful answer.
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Posted On: October 22nd, 2005 at 11:03pm by Madre [ + ] |
Mr. Simpson,
There isn't really a single prooftext of what I'm saying, it's a summarization of what Scripture teaches. It's not spin either. FemLem1 gave a great explanation (thus, why she is a FemLem). Basically, it's an understanding of the Order of Creation with Genesis and Ephesians as the primary texts.
One of these days I'll post explaining it more 
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Posted On: October 25th, 2005 at 7:45pm by Madre |
I wasn't saying women were superior to men, that's hardly the case. We are both equal before God in Christ (or apart from Him for that matter), so it cannot be the case that one is created to be superior to another.
Submission is nothing more than trusting another to lovingly tend to you, trusting their judgement, their decisions, their priorities, etc. Husbands especially are given to do care for their wives in this way, withholding nothing - including their own lives - to do so for her and women are given to trust them to do so and receive it.
There is little more "difficult" than receiving a gift unconditionally, without feeling as though we HAVE to somehow reciprocate or the gifts will stop or it's just the polite thing to do. God gives us forgiveness, eternal life, and salvation in Christ. We, as the Church, submit to our Bridegroom - trusting that He will only do what is best for us, care for us, love us - as a wife submits to her husband.
Woman is not more important than man and man is not more important than woman. But if you ask Christ who is more important - Him or the Church - He would say that His Bride is. And if you ask a husband the same question, he is given to say that his wife is.
Women are made to receive, to submit to the loving care of the men given to do so, as the Church is made to receive love from Christ who died to save her. How can a woman receive gifts from God and her men if she is usurping duties (and even vocations) specific to men? It is actually demeaning for her station to do so.
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