Madre's Missives
Inadvertent and Occasionally Intentional Thoughts
Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 12:37 am
I
have liked this guy since he handled the Joint
Declaration on Justification between the Lutheran World Federation and the
Roman Catholic Church. A few months after the hoopla over its signing
subsided, he issued the statement Dominus
Iesus, which essentially re-affirmed traditional Roman Catholic
doctrines - arguably many which would cause observant Lutherans to bristle even
more than they had over the LWF's supposed speaking for all Lutherans (at least
as far as the media was concerned anyway).
But as a critic of the JDDJ
(formally in my master's thesis) from the Lutheran side of things, I had to give the guy with the red yarmulke
props for sticking to the beliefs of his church and sticking it to all the
people who were making far much ado about well...nothing.
Ratzinger has done it again, now under the name of Pope Benedict.
Today, he released a statement, Sacramentum
Caritatis - a 130-page "summary" of assembly discussions from
2005 which also affirmed traditional Roman Catholic doctrines, such as the
celibacy of the priesthood, closed communion practice, banning from the Mass
those who have divorced and remarried, promoting eucharistic adoration and
restoring the Latin rite, among other things.
In an age where lines between Christian denominations and even entirely
different religions get smeared between demands for tolerance and a general
apathy about, well, everything, its nice to know where some lines are, to see
others also daring to learn about and stand up for what they believe too even if
we disagree with them about those beliefs.
While we dare to be Lutheran, a pope who dares to be Roman Catholic deserves
some sort of respect.
It's really too bad about that whole antichrist thing...
P.S. I didn't get to attend the Vagina Monologues after
all. The radio station neglected to deliver the tickets I had won to the
theater where, of course, they had no record of any tickets being given to the
radio station. I was mailed movie tickets (for a theater 30 min away) for
the inconvenience. :P
Edited on: March 14th, 2007 12:53 am
Comments:
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 8:52 am by Anonymous
Madre writes:
"It's really too bad about that whole antichrist thing..."
You mean people still believe that? I thought that was a bit antiquated...
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 9:44 am by Dan at Necessary Roughness
It's not antiquated, just a simplification (perhaps overly so, by critics) as to what is taught in the Apology to the Augsburg Confession, Article XV:
If the adversaries defend these human services as meriting justification, grace, and the remission of sins, they simply establish the kingdom of Antichrist. For the kingdom of Antichrist is a new service of God, devised by human authority rejecting Christ, just as the kingdom of Mahomet has services and works through which it wishes to be justified before God; nor does it hold that men are gratuitously justified before God by faith, for Christ's sake. Thus the Papacy also will be a part of the kingdom of Antichrist if it thus defends human services as justifying.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 10:14 am by revcwirla
Some of the items on the papal checklist in the original post continue to confirm the assessment of the Lutheran Confessions that the papacy does not represent Christ but is part of the kingdom of Antichrist. I also appreciate the fact that the Apology had the foresight to recognize the kingdom of Mohammed as part of the same kingdom. Are we then surprised that this pope prayed with an immam at the Blue Mosque in Damascus? While visiting the ruins of St. Sophia, he wrote this in the guest book: "In our diversity, we find ourselves before the faith in the One God. May God enlighten us and make us find the path of love and peace."
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 10:27 am by Anonymous
Dan quotes the Augsburg Confession with the following:
"nor does it hold that men are gratuitously justified before God by faith, for Christ's sake. Thus the Papacy also will be a part of the kingdom of Antichrist if it thus defends human services as justifying."
Hmmm, the Papacy accepted the JDDJ. The JDDJ states, in part, that "all people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life."
"Through Christ alone are we justified." Doesn't get much clearer than that.
My guess is that some people are still so entrenched along the fronts of a sixteenth-century religious war that they refuse to recognize the commonalities we share as fellow members of the Body of Christ. And, name-calling based on that sixteenth-century war certainly doesn't help keep this Body of Christ healthy.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 11:10 am by Dan at Necessary Roughness
A statement of "we agree" with no change in the catechism is simply a statement, and one that could be proven false. There were no changes in those activities of Rome which was found objectionable 500 years ago, such as plenary indulgences.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 11:56 am by Anonymous
Dan said:
"A statement of 'we agree' with no change in the catechism is simply a statement, and one that could be proven false. There were no changes in those activities of Rome which was found objectionable 500 years ago, such as plenary indulgences."
Really? I haven't seen Johann Tetzel anywhere near my church offering his wares. Can you tell me how to contact him? I'd be interested in purchasing one, if only for the laugh of it all...
If you can forward me any contact info, I'd be most appreciative.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 12:15 pm by revcwirla
As Madre pointed out, the current pontiff, as Cardinal Ratzinger, rejected the basic tenets of JDDJ as contrary to Catholic teaching on justification. I agree with Madre when she says that it's easier to deal with a pope who is truly Catholic.
For the correct Roman Catholic teaching on indulgences see The Catholic Encyclopedia
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 12:46 pm by Dan at Necessary Roughness
Anonymous said, "Really? I haven't seen Johann Tetzel anywhere near my church offering his wares. Can you tell me how to contact him? I'd be interested in purchasing one, if only for the laugh of it all..."
Tetzel may not be selling them, but the current Pontiff still gives them out post-JDDJ. JDDJ was signed in 1999, but Pope Benedict gave indulgences for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception and for World Youth Day in 2005. More currently the Pontiff is granting a plenary indulgence to all who visit Dominican monasteries between Advent 2006 and Epiphany 2008.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 2:11 pm by Anonymous
revcwirla writes:
"The current pontiff, as Cardinal Ratzinger, rejected the basic tenets of JDDJ as contrary to Catholic teaching on justification..."
Maybe, but the church's official stance on JDDJ hasn't changed with him elevated to Pope rather than merely a Cardinal working in an academic, apologetic position. You'd think that if he was that opposed to JDDJ, something would've changed in the past few years.
Dan writes:
"A statement of 'we agree' with no change in the catechism is simply a statement..."
Perhaps I should've addressed Dan's earlier comment before.
The JDDJ never states that Lutherans "agree" with the Roman Catholic church on justification -- it merely states that there is a consensus of basic truths in each tradition. As I mentioned above, the JDDJ states "Through Christ alone are we justified" -- that is the basic truth recognized by both traditions and around which both traditions can find consensus.
The JDDJ is not the end -- it is a step in the process of recognizing the errors of both our traditions in the past and working to alleviate them. It is a step to healing the Body of Christ -- something that, if I remember by Bible correctly, is a worthwhile goal.
I can understand why conservative Lutherans don't like the JDDJ because there is no doctrinal unity between the traditions, and conservative Lutherans demand doctrinal unity before they are even willing to recognize others in the Body of Christ. Fine -- your dissention is noted. So is your lack of involvement in the JDDJ project.
But, the name-calling that your JDDJ discussions always end in is really just juvenile, IMHO. Contrary to popular conservative Lutheran belief, Lutherans do not hold The One True Error-Free Faith(tm) -- no one does because, as our tradition points out, we are all fallen creatures. So, get over the whole sixteenth-century Antichrist fascination, and recognize the Catholic tradition for what it is -- fallen human beings struggling to make sense of the Christ event, just like us. Find consensus, fix errors of the past, and build. Reflect the love of Christ.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 2:16 pm by Madre
Hmmm, the Papacy accepted the JDDJ.
Actually, the JDDJ was never accepted by JPII, it never went that high in the chain of command. It was accepted by some of his flunkies in red.
The JDDJ states, in part, that "all people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life."
Very good, you're picking through the document. Now actually read it. It goes something like this:
We agree that the sky is blue.
Rome: ...and by "blue" we mean "robin's egg blue".
Lutherans: ..and by "blue" we mean "navy blue".
Yeah...there's all sorts of agreement in terminology, as long as each side can continue to define the terms according to their own theology.
My guess is that some people are still so entrenched along the fronts of a sixteenth-century religious war that they refuse to recognize the commonalities we share as fellow members of the Body of Christ. And, name-calling based on that sixteenth-century war certainly doesn't help keep this Body of Christ healthy.
The 16th century disagreements still exist, 400 years later. And the cool thing is that Lutherans and Roman Catholics do recognize the commonalities that we share. We also recognize the very important differences that (unfortunately) still exist. I genuinely like everything I see about Benedict. It's not a personal insult, it's a theological position.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 2:51 pm by Anonymous
Madre writes:
"Actually, the JDDJ was never accepted by JPII, it never went that high in the chain of command. It was accepted by some of his flunkies in red."
In the Catholic Church (as I certainly hope you'd know given that you choose to critique it), when something of this nature is accepted by a "flunky in red", that is as good as being accepted by the Office of the Papacy.
"Flunkies in red" -- the names just keep on comin'. Christian love just flows here...
Madre writes:
"Very good, you're picking through the document. Now actually read it. It goes something like this: We agree that the sky is blue. Rome: ...and by 'blue' we mean 'robin's egg blue'. Lutherans: ..and by 'blue' we mean "navy blue". Yeah...there's all sorts of agreement in terminology, as long as each side can continue to define the terms according to their own theology."
Hmmm, isn't this what I just stated in my previous posting, Madre? That we don't "agree" so much as recognize the basic truth in each tradition? The sky is blue = Justification through Christ alone. There's your starting point to mending wounds of the past and understanding The Other a bit more.
Regarding your comment "as long as each side can continue to define the terms according to their own theology": I'm glad to see that you are admitting that the Lutherans who signed onto the JDDJ didn't compromise their theology by doing so. Not many conservatives would be willing to state that.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 3:10 pm by Madre
"Flunkies in red" was more of term of endearment than an insult, but thanks for putting the best construction on the matter. I'm not sure exactly what was insulting about it. I think the red is very cool, but the purple is probably cooler even if the red outranks it. It's too bad that our Lutheran ministers are stuck in black cassocks. :)
We don't agree, and we don't recognize the basic truth in each tradition. That's the whole point. Just because we can agree on "terminology" while defining those terms in very different ways (there is significant difference between robin's egg blue and navy blue btw), no real agreement has been reached. It's deceptive to claim that there has been. We don't even agree on what "justification" means, why it's needed, etc. This document changed nothing.
Actually, I do not admit that the Lutherans who signed on to the JDDJ didn't compromise their theology. I believe that they did. By claiming that there is agreement or compromise when there is none, they do indeed compromise the doctrine upon which we believe the Church stands or falls, they fall. That's why I admire Benedict, then Ratzinger, coming out with Domiunus Iesus, which was basically a giant "gotcha" and reaffirmed the Roman Catholic position. The Lutherans involved, at least the ELCA, have done no such thing and have actually continued to compromise on any number of other distinctively Lutheran doctrines.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 3:45 pm by Anonymous
Madre:
"'Flunkies in red' was more of term of endearment than an insult, but thanks for putting the best construction on the matter."
I find it hard to believe you have any endearing emotions towards anything Roman Catholic, Madre. Except, it seems, their color scheme. :)
Madre:
"We don't even agree on what 'justification' means..."
What part of "Through Christ alone are we justified" do you disagree with, Madre?
Madre:
"Actually, I do not admit that the Lutherans who signed on to the JDDJ didn't compromise their theology. I believe that they did. By claiming that there is agreement or compromise when there is none, they do indeed compromise the doctrine upon which we believe the Church stands or falls, they fall."
Ah, yes, lack of purity of doctrine causes the church to fall -- the mantra of conservatives. From my experiences, it's the loss of the Gospel message of love that is causing the church to "fall", as people start to believe the church to be judgmental, Inquisitorial, focused on trivial matters and, ultimately, irrelevent to their search for Truth.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 14th, 2007 at 4:56 pm by Madre
Anonymous Poster (what's what that anyway) says:
"I find it hard to believe you have any endearing emotions towards anything Roman Catholic, Madre. Except, it seems, their color scheme. :)"
It remains true whether you believe it or not 
I have a lot of good things to say about Rome, and there are many points of agreement, as well as points of disagreement. Read the Confutation and Apology for a few.
Anonymous (what's up with that anyway) says:
"What part of "Through Christ alone are we justified" do you disagree with, Madre?
I'd like clarification on the Roman Catholic understanding of the words, "through" "Christ", "alone", "are", "we", and "justified" separately and together.
It does no one any good to bury differences under the rug of superficial agreement in terminology as long as there is no actual agreement in principle. Let's just be honest about our differences and move forward and discuss them like adults and not pretend things don't exist as long as we ignore them.
Anonymous (what's up with that anyway?) says:
"Ah, yes, lack of purity of doctrine causes the church to fall -- the mantra of conservatives. From my experiences, it's the loss of the Gospel message of love that is causing the church to "fall", as people start to believe the church to be judgmental, Inquisitorial, focused on trivial matters and, ultimately, irrelevent to their search for Truth?"
Actually, that's not what I said. I said the doctrine of justification is that upon which Lutherans believe the Church stands or falls. There is no more important doctrine to get right and proclaim more loudly than that of justification. This isn't about purity of doctrine, per se. It's about the Gospel. Perhaps your opposition toward "conservatives" (however you define that term) is clouding your judgment here as well.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 15th, 2007 at 8:16 am by Anonymous
Madre comments:
"It does no one any good to bury differences under the rug of superficial agreement in terminology as long as there is no actual agreement in principle. Let's just be honest about our differences and move forward and discuss them like adults and not pretend things don't exist as long as we ignore them."
No one is ignoring differences. There are times to stress differences, and there are times to build bridges on commonalities. JDDJ is a bridge-building moment -- a time to recognize our similarities, not differences. The differences are always there and are always discussed. Taking a general browse through academic journals of the ELCA and other LWF members and of the Roman Catholic Church reveal the variety of opinions on the differences in doctrine. Even the JDDJ implies that there are still differences, in the wording used in the official statement about the JDDJ: "consensus in *basic* truths" in each others' doctrines. The statement continues by stating that both parties stress "continued and deepened study of the biblical foundations of the doctrine of justification" and "seek[ing] further common understanding of the doctrine of justification, also beyond what is dealt with in the Joint Declaration..."
The JDDJ is not one of those times to stress differences, and that is where you miss the whole point of the JDDJ. This is a time of mending the wounds of the old wars that some people on both sides are still insisting on fighting today, especially when they call each other names like "Antichrist" or "Heretic". Come on, Madre, "Antichrist" sounds so Tim LaHaye -- is that who you want Lutheranism to be associated with in the minds of those who don't know better?
Madre writes:
"Actually, that's not what I said [re: purity of doctrine]..."
Yes, that is what you said, albeit not with those exact words. Your particular understanding of the Lutheran doctrine on justification is what needs to remain pure, or else the church "falls", in your opinion. Fine. I can understand where you're coming from, even if I disagree that JDDJ is making the Lutheran doctrine of justification impure. The JDDJ is an example of living out the Gospel message, not impeding it, Madre. It is people who throw around words like "Antichrist" that are impeding the spread of the Gospel message, as they are the ones who continue to wound the Body of Christ.
Madre questions:
"Anonymous Poster (what's what that anyway)"
It's calling a spade a spade, my dear Madre. This electronic world doesn't allow for any way of knowing me, unless I decide to call myself by some identifying characteristic. However, even if I called myself "George W Bush", I don't think you'd be fooled, even if I pretended to actually be him.
If it makes you more comfortable, I can certainly use a different login -- I'll even leave it to you to decide: what name would you like me to use when logging into this discussion? 
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 16th, 2007 at 2:40 pm by Madre
If you want to build a bridge, officially rescind Trent. As long as that stands, there is no agreement on justification in "basic truths" or otherwise. As I keep saying, the only agreement was that of superficial terminology - there is no agreement on what those terms actually mean. It's a white-washed tomb.
The ELCA is so discerning about differences that they say that the Zwinglian/Calvinist doctrine that Christ's True Body and Blood are NOT present in the Lord's Supper is not contradictory with the Lutheran (and Roman Catholic) doctrine that His True Body and Blood ARE present. The two doctrines are actually complementary. They agree in the "basic truth" with the Reformed that "Christ is present", although there is this glaring contradiction in what that statement means.
I'm not stressing differences, I'm honestly acknowledging the differences that actually exist. Let's talk about them, discuss them, debate them, even argue (academically) them. What I don't like is the whitewashing pretending that these differences aren't there or that they don't really matter - the superficial agreement does not take precedence.
Antichrist is not an insult, it is not meanspirited. I wish it were not a term that did apply to the current pope, unfortunately it does. We were using the term long before Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins came on the scene, and Paul used it before that. We certainly don't agree with them on their theology at all. I don't stop stop using a term just because some ignorant people misunderstand it. I teach what it means for those who are actually willing to listen and not just be offended for the sake of being offended.
The JDDJ doesn't make the Lutheran doctrine of justification impure. The LWF does not speak for all of Lutheranism, and is (arguably), faulty in its own use of the term "Lutheran" if it does not follow the doctrines that Lutherans have believed, taught, and confessed for the last four and a half centuries.
As for your anonymous posting, Pr. Cwirla has a great post on that subject at his blog: http://blog.higherthings.org/wcwirla/article/2534.html
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 16th, 2007 at 4:14 pm by Anonymous
Madre proposes:
"If you want to build a bridge, officially rescind Trent. As long as that stands, there is no agreement on justification in "basic truths" or otherwise."
I don't have the authority to rescind Trent.
It appears that the majority of Lutherans throughout the world would disagree with you that there is no agreement on *basic* truths between these two traditions. The majority of Lutherans are willing to move their church bodies forward in faith into a truer heeding of the Gospel message by attempting to heal this Body of Christ that has been wounded for so long.
Like I said before, nearly all within the LWF and the Roman Catholic church recognize and acknowledge the differences between our traditions (see my previous posting about reviewing publications of each body). But, most also see that there is more to our calling as Christians than just defending doctrine for doctrine's sake. And, that appears to be what you're insisting on. Those of us who support the JDDJ feel we are being better Christians by setting aside *specific* doctrinal differences for a moment to say, "I see the *basic* truth in your message, and I recognize you as a fellow Christian." Your Christian priority is doctrinal purity; ours is Christian love. When living out my Christianity, I'll always err on the side of inclusion and love rather than exclusion and purity.
That is part of the humility of the Christian calling -- relying fully on God's message as reflected in Christ and knowing our limitations as humans. The "Christ event" as described in the Bible reveals our limitations to us: we humans are not God and we therefore do not fully comprehend or speak inerrently about Ultimate Truth. Instead, we must rely on God's love -- a love we are called to live out in our lives as Christians. And that love "is not arrogant or boastful", right? Tell me, is insisting that one's doctrine is the ultimate understanding of Truth and others had better agree with it being arrogant or is it being humble? After all, that is what you are insisting in your criticisms -- that your understanding of doctrine is the ultimate understanding of God's Truth.
Madre writes:
"[The LWF is] faulty in its own use of the term "Lutheran" if it does not follow the doctrines that Lutherans have believed, taught, and confessed for the last four and a half centuries."
Again, your stressing the purity of doctrine as you see it over the message of the Gospel. To be "Lutheran" is to be a Reformation Christian. Not "Reformation" in the historic sense exclusively, but also reforming today as well.
Regarding your use of the term "Antichrist": Use it at your own risk, even if it is a historical term within Christendom. But, you'll still be understood by your fellow Christians in a certain way each time you use it, as this is a term that carries far too much baggage for the modern-day Christian community. Anyone who uses this term paints themselves with a certain color these days, and it says a lot about the priorities that person holds within his/her Christian life...
As for revcwirla's posting on avatars, I fail to see why you referred me to it. Is your real name "Madre"? If not, you have no basis for complaining about me posting as "Anonymous" when that is truly all I can be in this forum.
So, there's a few dead horses for ya. Grab your bat and have at it.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 16th, 2007 at 7:14 pm by Sandra Ostapowich
Popularity does not necessarily equate to veracity. In fact, when it comes to the Gospel, Jesus Himself said it would divide people, even family members.
By insisting on your version of the Gospel (an abstract message of "love" and tolerance), and saying that my belief that there is an exclusive message of Truth is arrogant and boastful, how do you explain coming to my Lutheran blog and insisting that I must be tolerant of other beliefs? Or do you not really believe that's true? ;)
I'm not going around and insisting that others better agree with my beliefs. Not at all. I was actually giving Pope Benedict props for standing up for his and for Rome's. I think it's great and I'd like to see more of it. If we're going to be members of a group (whether it be sacred or secular), there's far too much ignorance about what that group believes, and not nearly enough integrity about leaving it when one's personal beliefs differ vastly from the group's professed beliefs. I respect people who know what they believe, why, and stand their ground even when people may not like them for it.
Lutherans do not believe in a continuing Reformation in the sense that doctrines continue to reform with the times. In that sense we do not continue "reforming" the church. Through the faithful receiving of the Lord's Word and Sacrament, we are conformed to Him. We have consistently believed, taught, and confessed the same doctrines for about 500 years.
As for terminology, I'm used to having to explain what I mean by words. It's part of being Lutheran. The methobapticostals assume we're just like the Roman Catholics and the Roman Catholics assume we're just like the methobapticostals. And don't even get me started on the Calvinists! I'm up for it, that's why I'm a teacher.
I didn't realize that my name was not on my blog. Most people related to Higher Things know who "Madre" is. I have corrected that. I have no problem putting my name to what I post. Do you?
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 19th, 2007 at 10:01 am by Anonymous
Madre:
"Popularity does not necessarily equate to veracity. In fact, when it comes to the Gospel, Jesus Himself said it would divide people, even family members."
In Reformation churches, it is the general members that drive the direction of the churches, through their General Conferences and Assemblies. So, if the majority of general members didn't agree with the general direction of their church, the assemblies would reflect that. There's something to be said for guidance of a corporate body by the Holy Spirit.
Madre:
"By insisting on your version of the Gospel (an abstract message of "love" and tolerance), and saying that my belief that there is an exclusive message of Truth is arrogant and boastful, how do you explain coming to my Lutheran blog and insisting that I must be tolerant of other beliefs? Or do you not really believe that's true? ;)"
Is something wrong with an "abstract" message of love and tolerance? Wasn't Jesus quite abstract in saying, "love your neighbor as yourself?" I don't hear any of the caveats from Jesus that conservatives usually put onto their messages of "love" -- "Yes, I love my neighbor, BUT..."
Oh, and please show me where I insist that you must be tolerant of other beliefs. I reread my postings and don't see that there at all. I post comments on your blog not to insist that you be tolerant of other beliefs, but to remind myself of the wonderful diversity within the Christian faith. To remind myself that there is truth outside of progressive Christianity, and that I personally need to remain tolerant of folks who believe differently than I do. Also, to remind you and your readers of the diversity within Christianity -- to let anyone who reads this blog know that your personal understandings of Christian theology are not the only "Christian" theological understandings. So, as much as you serve as a window for me into the wonderful diversity of Christianity, I am doing the same for you -- I am reminding you that you are not the sole voice of God here on earth, as much as you do that for me. And that we still must find ways to remain civil and respectful of each other.
Madre:
"I'm not going around and insisting that others better agree with my beliefs. Not at all."
Just Lutherans, then? Because, if you reread your postings, you will see how you insist that your understanding of Lutheran tradition is the "right" understanding of Lutheran tradition.
Madre:
"If we're going to be members of a group (whether it be sacred or secular), there's far too much ignorance about what that group believes, and not nearly enough integrity about leaving it when one's personal beliefs differ vastly from the group's professed beliefs. I respect people who know what they believe, why, and stand their ground even when people may not like them for it."
I fully agree, which is why I can defend the Lutherans involved in the JDDJ for "know[ing] what they believe, why, and stand[ing] their ground even when people may not like them for it." And, for being true to their understanding of Lutheran tradition.
Madre:
"Lutherans do not believe in a continuing Reformation in the sense that doctrines continue to reform with the times. In that sense we do not continue "reforming" the church. Through the faithful receiving of the Lord's Word and Sacrament, we are conformed to Him. We have consistently believed, taught, and confessed the same doctrines for about 500 years."
Same doctrines, but different understandings of those doctrines. That's part of the organic, changing nature of the church. That's what keeps the church from being static and irrelevent.
Madre:
"I didn't realize that my name was not on my blog. Most people related to Higher Things know who "Madre" is. I have corrected that. I have no problem putting my name to what I post. Do you? :)"
Ha -- I'm beginning to think you're infatuated with me, Madre! I have no problems stating my beliefs and taking responsibility for those beliefs, and I am glad to see that you are doing the same. But, please explain why I am the only person being asked to state my true name, when you have many, many other people who have posted comments here under names other than their real ones. If you're going to insist on one person doing as much, then you need to play fair, Madre!
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 19th, 2007 at 1:59 pm by Dtp
Madre,
With all respect, I thnk you are beng bated by this person. Then again, that can be fun, and your post clarfy the position well. RCC doesn't believe in Justificaton by faith, rather, they have condmened it.
I do admire da german dude though - he is brutally clear and honest, and if we are to have any discussion with him, or the college of cardinals (which didn't ratify JDDJ or have the authority to) - we must be brutally honest about our doctrines.
they have condemned ours - we conitnue to preach it. the Bishop of Rome acknowledges this - now we can talk - rather than hide it.
Recently I was at a retreat a catholic center (they were willing to host us) and in the pews - there was their new missal. I was shocked to see it invite all baptised believers in Christ, except for Lutherans and Orthopox to commune. It said in regard to us, that we should recognize we hold a different gospel, and would be welcome if we recant. (of course I wondered why they didn't mind us blaspheming their chapel though!)
Hmmm... where did my "Here I Stand" socks go?
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 19th, 2007 at 4:34 pm by Anonymous
Dtp (what's up with that anyway?):
Glad to see that you also "admire" The Antichrist, like Madre and others have stated. There seems to be a lot of you who profess your disdain for Catholicism but yet express your admiration of someone you all continually name The Antichrist. Is that somehow Biblical? I'm confused.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 19th, 2007 at 4:40 pm by dtp
Mr Anonymous,
Simple - I admire him the same way I admire anyone else who woudl rather present their views with Integrity, than hide them behind some 'ecumenical spirit' as his predecessor did.
BTW - the office is the anti-christ - not the man in the office. There have been a few popes who have preached the gospel in the time since Luther, and many before that point.
Now, what's up with anonymous?
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 19th, 2007 at 5:08 pm by Anonymous
Dtp:
Please read my previous postings regarding my name. Personally, I don't care how you name yourself in your postings -- I was just pointing out to Madre (using her own words) that there are others who are posting here without using their real names and, if she is going to maintain integrity, she'll have to insist that you others use your real names as long as she keeps asking for mine.
Regarding the office of the Papacy being the Antichrist: Yes, I've heard it all before. And, like I said earlier, anyone who continues to talk about "The Antichrist" is painting themselves to be a very special kind of Christian. They'll be seen as Tim LaHaye followers by the masses unfamiliar with the term, and they'll be seen as having misguided priorities within their Christian theology by others who actually understand what their saying when they use the term. Only those who agree with their views are moved by the term.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 20th, 2007 at 11:57 am by dtp
Ahh, the old - I don't want to engage you on what you are saying, so I will insult you, and mock you, and dismiss you strategy.
Sorry, I won't engage you in it.
The RCC, and speicfically the office of the pope, has declared that we are not saved by faith, but by works. They have replaced the gospel, with condemnation, for no one's works will get them into heaven.
That is anti-Christ, and therefore the office is that of the Anti-christ.
Lutherans are special kinds of Christians, we are, by faith in Christ death, burual and ressurection - for us - christian=, That faith, like repentance is a gift. All else is a fraud - a diabolical fraud.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 20th, 2007 at 12:57 pm by Anonymous
Dtp writes:
"Ahh, the old - I don't want to engage you on what you are saying, so I will insult you, and mock you, and dismiss you strategy."
From whom? Me? Read all my previous posts in this thread, and you will see that I have been engaging and responding to what others have posted. Please show me an example of an insult I have said -- I haven't intentionally insulted anyone, and would like to apologize to anyone who took something I posted as an insult.
"The RCC, and speicfically the office of the pope, has declared that we are not saved by faith, but by works."
I ask you: What part of the JDDJ's "Through Christ alone are we justified" states that we are saved by works?
"They have replaced the gospel, with condemnation, for no one's works will get them into heaven. That is anti-Christ, and therefore the office is that of the Anti-christ."
Whatever you would like to say, Dtp. But, my warning to those who throw around the term "Antichrist" still stands.
"Lutherans are special kinds of Christians, we are, by faith in Christ death, burual and ressurection - for us - christian=, That faith, like repentance is a gift. All else is a fraud - a diabolical fraud."
That belief is not unique to Lutherans, but go ahead and believe that if you'd like. I'd be willing to bet, though, that when you get that great big tour of heaven in the afterlife, you'll find all sorts of non-Lutherans there.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 20th, 2007 at 9:04 pm by Sandra Ostapowich
"In Reformation churches, it is the general members that drive the direction of the churches, through their General Conferences and Assemblies. So, if the majority of general members didn't agree with the general direction of their church, the assemblies would reflect that. There's something to be said for guidance of a corporate body by te Holy Spirit."
Actually, this is not the case for Lutherans. Our Confessions are definitive of what confessing the Lutheran faith entails, and that is not subject to any General Conferences or Assemblies. Once again, the ELCA is not representative of Lutheran faith or practice on many levels, including this one. If you want to know what Lutherans believe, teach, and confess, look at the Book of Concord. Those doctrines have not changed and have remained definitive of Lutheran faith for 450 years.
"That belief is not unique to Lutherans, but go ahead and believe that if you'd like. I'd be willing to bet, though, that when you get that great big tour of heaven in the afterlife, you'll find all sorts of non-Lutherans there.
In my studies, Lutherans are the ones who believe, teach, and confess salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone clearest. Rome condemns anyone who confesses that particular doctrine of justification. Yet, Lutherans have always confessed that the Gospel is indeed preached and believed by Christians who are not members of Lutheran churches.
Nice try though!
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 21st, 2007 at 9:02 am by Anonymous
Madre responds:
"Actually, this is not the case for Lutherans. Our Confessions are definitive of what confessing the Lutheran faith entails, and that is not subject to any General Conferences or Assemblies."
So why does the LCMS have its Regular Conventions? To legislate for the church body based on the Confessions, right? In other words, so that the members and leaders of the LCMS can determine how to live out its Confessions and doctrines. And, that, dear Madre, is the same thing that the ELCA does in its Churchwide Assembly. While the Confessions and doctrines remain the same, the Conventions and Assemblies help the church to live out those Confessions and doctrines.
So, it appears that this *is* indeed the case for Lutherans -- at least LCMS and ELCA Lutherans. If not, and if the Confessions are completely self-explanatory as they are written in the Book of Concord and churches do not need any further guidance on how to live those Confessions out, then why don't you go to your next Regular Convention and propose to save the LCMS lots of money in the future by just not holding those blasted Regular Conventions anymore? Let's see how self-explanatory your fellow LCMSers find the Confessions...
Madre opines:
"In my studies, Lutherans are the ones who believe, teach, and confess salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone clearest."
Good for you -- how wonderful that you've found that message in the Lutheran tradition! Other people have found that same message in other church bodies and, like you said, "the Gospel is indeed preached and believed by Christians who are not members of Lutheran churches".
I was just making sure that some of your other guests (I'm nodding my head in your direction, Dtp) are aware of that.
Madre leaves a final thought:
"Nice try though!"
What did I try? And, why no comment to Dtp about using his real name, Madre? Just wondering...
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: March 29th, 2007 at 2:31 am by Lito Cruz
I am not bothered that we have the anti-Christ thing, i think it still holds. Any way the LCA where my church is a member of have made some pronouncements retracting the anti-Christ accusations.
Re: Pope Benedict XVI Dares to be Roman Catholic!
Posted On: April 20th, 2007 at 2:46 pm by Dan at Necessary Roughness
http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cyberbrethren/2007/04/rome_is_rome_is.html
This might either add some clarity or fuel the fire with respect to Rome's feelings about merit.