Madre's Missives

Inadvertent and Occasionally Intentional Thoughts

Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 21st, 2005 at 10:25 pm

There's a strange idea of Gospel going on in some areas of Lutherandom. Some people think that on this side of glory we are neither fully new man nor fully old man. They don't think we're all that bad. We're not that great, but we're not so bad either. No wonder some people think we automatically need the Law's accusation, that we need to see our sin, that we need to be brought to our knees and killed under its weight. We're not quite dead yet. We're maimed, but still relatively neutral before God, kinda new man, kinda old man.

For such a situation, it's too risky to give too much freedom to someone who's so unpredictable, someone who isn't ready for it. The Law must be given first, and the new man trained to accept and even love its killing. But then again, for such a person, who is neither fully new man or fully old man, the Law never quite finishes the job, and so the Gospel can never do so either. So what ensues is torturously painful, but not to the point of death...and maybe a little balm of explanation. Repeat as necessary. Eventually, the sinner is broken and may then receive a bit of the Gospel. But not too much...even that must be hedged in by more Law, lest that sinner think he can just go out and willy-nilly do whatever he wants.

As Lutherans, simil iustus et peccator is a major point of confession. Contrary to the above theology, Lutherans believe that we are indeed fully saint AND fully sinner, at the same time. Christ has died for us, we are forgiven by His atoning work, we have been baptized and raised to new life in Christ, we are heirs of the Kingdom, we are right this second as holy, precious, righteous, and pure as Jesus Himself. At the same time, we just need to pinch ourselves to figure out that we're still alive. That means that we are still sinners living in a sinful world full of other sinners.

It is a paradox. At face value, being both fully sinner and saint cannot be true. How can a person be fully one thing and fully another? The sinner part is easy. Just look around and examine yourself according to the 10 commandments and your vocations. Sin is easy for us to see. No question about it, we are fully sinners. As we confess, we sin in thought, word and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved God with our whole heart, we have not loved our neighbor as ourselves. We justly deserve God's temporal and eternal punishment.

And as our pastors are called and ordained to tell us, God HAS had mercy on us. He has sent His Son to die for us. Our pastors pronounce God's grace to us and, speaking for God Himself as they have been set apart to do in their vocation, forgive us in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. In that Name that was given to us in Baptism, we are fully forgiven, fully saints.

We do not swing back and forth between saint and sinner like a pendulum, varying from moment to moment in degrees of sinfulness and saintedness. We don't have to worry about what might happen if we get run over by a bus when the pendulum is more on the sinner side of things than the saint one. In Christ, we are forgiven.

Comments:

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 22nd, 2005 at 8:40 am by Rev. Todd Peperkorn
At the risk of being obtuse, could you give me an example of someone who thinks "that on this side of glory we are neither fully new man nor fully old man" ??? I can't say I've run across that argument before. Yet you appear to be investing a great deal of energy into combating it, so I'd like to see it in action.

Peperkorn

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 22nd, 2005 at 9:10 am by Alms
Youw write:

There's a strange idea of Gospel going on in some areas of Lutherandom. Some people think that on this side of glory we are neither fully new man nor fully old man. They don't think we're all that bad. We're not that great, but we're not so bad either. No wonder some people think we automatically need the Law's accusation, that we need to see our sin, that we need to be brought to our knees and killed under its weight. We're not quite dead yet. We're maimed, but still relatively neutral before God, kinda new man, kinda old man.

Let me say I do appreciate the opportunity to calmly discuss theology and to listen and to learn from one another.

I do not know what you mean by this half and half stuff but I will say this:

Me… I do need the law's accusation. I don't like it .. I am not saved by it ... I flee from it ... but God sends it, he kills me with it. He does crush me, now today, me, a baptized believer. He does it because the Old Adam in me is alive and until heaven still hangs around. God sends the Law to absolutely terrify me and drive me to the Cross so that I might confess and be forgiven.

You write:
The sinner part is easy. Just look around and examine yourself according to the 10 commandments and your vocations. Sin is easy for us to see.

Easy? Really? You are not living in my world or in my skin. My sin is not easy to see. My sin gets twisted up with my prde and my glorying in being a pastor and in my sneaky lusts, and my thinking, "Boy I know the Gospel better than everyone else, I am seminary educated, Lutheran from the cradle, I am baptized, I have read some theology books and boy am I better than everyone else."

Sin worms its way into every thing I do, even the pious things: my attendance at communion ( boy look at me don’t i look pious, making the sign of the cross, aren't I better than all those who don’t…) worship (wow I am great, more liturgical than eveyrone else since I know all the right moves) even into my discussion of theology on blogs ( don’t I know more than anyone else, cant I understand the gospel better … no one else can explain it or teach me anything)

As for me, my sin is not easy nor is the Law easy for me. Its hard. Crucifixion hard. Putting the old Adam to death is no cake walk. It hurts.

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 22nd, 2005 at 9:53 am by Madre
"On this side of glory we are neither fully new man nor fully old man."

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 22nd, 2005 at 12:44 pm by Rev. Todd Peperkorn

"On this side of glory we are neither fully new man nor fully old man."

Thank you! Now we're not dealing in vagaries, but in concreteness. If you are intending to make a post that clearly is a direct response to another post, it might be helpful to actually link it. It's kind of the polite thing to do.

But back to theology. I agree that the phrase from Pr. Petersen's post, "On this side of glory we are neither fully new man nor fully old man" rather bugs me. It can give the 50/50 perception that I think you are reacting against.

I don't think Pr. Petersen is trying to suggest that we are half sinner and half saint. Maybe he's talking about the consummation of all flesh at the Last Day, and that the culmination of our Baptism happens on the day of glory. If this were not so, there would be no sin.

I think he is also trying to hold up what St. Paul talks about in Romans seven,

"13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

The sinner part is NOT easy. If you think it is easy, then you are a better Christian than St. Paul. I don't think you believe that, obviously. But suggesting that sin is easy to recognize, easy to diagnose, and easy know kind of belies the very struggle the Christian faces every day. And this side of the grave that struggle continues.

But thank God for the victory won by Jesus Christ on the cross and delivered to us! The fact that we struggle and fight against sin is a sign of faith.

Anyway, back to musing on the mysteries....

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 2:08 am by Stan Lemon
Pr. Peperkorn writes:

Thank you! Now we're not dealing in vagaries, but in concreteness. If you are intending to make a post that clearly is a direct response to another post, it might be helpful to actually link it. It's kind of the polite thing to do.

With all due respect, this is utter silliness.

To use a Nagelism (I know, that's a naughty word these days...), address the theology, not the person. Heaven forbid we attempt to be objective and leave the person out of the conversation and just do theology. It would just be so... not-Missouri-ish, wouldn't it?

Longing for greener pastures,
- Stan

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 2:13 am by Stan Lemon

Maybe he's talking about the consummation of all flesh at the Last Day, and that the culmination of our Baptism happens on the day of glory. If this were not so, there would be no sin.

What does this mean?

What, praytell, did you receive in Baptism?

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 7:30 am by Rev. Todd Peperkorn

With all due respect, this is utter silliness.

To use a Nagelism (I know, that's a naughty word these days...), address the theology, not the person. Heaven forbid we attempt to be objective and leave the person out of the conversation and just do theology. It would just be so... not-Missouri-ish, wouldn't it?

Longing for greener pastures,
- Stan

With all due respect indeed, to directly engage a person about something they wrote recently (Oct 18) while not referencing them is not engaging the "theology, not the person". It is not allowing the person's words to speak for themselves.

I once wrote a paper entitled "Never Mention Their Names". It was about (among other things) how in the Missouri Synod at the turn of the twentieth century, it became popular to write attacks on other theologies and other positions without actually citing the person in question. Francis Pieper was perhaps the most guilty of this in his Christian Dogmatics. The Dogmatics section on the divine institution of the Holy Ministry is a direct attack on his brother, August, in the Wisconsin Synod. But he instead write the whole section as if it is written against Hoefling. You could also see this in Walther's Church and Ministry, the Brief Statement, and most documents ever producted by the CTCR. Glorious anonymity. That way you never have to be responsible for what you wrote, because you can always claim you were referring to someone else.

Where you don't generally find that approach is in the Lutheran Confessions. The Augustana and the Formula in particular deal with real doctrines held by real people with real names. The theology is what is driving things. But if they have a problem with a specific group, they name it.

This is particularly helpful, even necessary, in the blog world. If we were all sitting in a classroom or in a Bible class this would not be an issue. But when we're all sitting at our computers drinking coffee or whatever spread throughout the country, then it is helpful to connect the dots.

I'm not suggesting that it needs to be rude or vitriolic, etc. But people start to get testy when they are being specifically addressed and perhaps don't even know about it because they didn't happen to read the article.

So to close, I would suggest that when you are referring to another person's views, it is helpful to refer to the other person as well. It is politie, it keeps the conversations above board and connected, and it helps everyone involved.

That's my $.02. FWIW.

Peperkorn

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 8:46 am by Rev. Todd Peperkorn

Maybe he's talking about the consummation of all flesh at the Last Day, and that the culmination of our Baptism happens on the day of glory. If this were not so, there would be no sin.

What does this mean?

What, praytell, did you receive in Baptism?

[Baptism] works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.

Yet there is throughout the Scriptures in connection with Baptism and the Sacrament the sense that we receive it all, but that it is also preparing us for that which is to come. There is always more to come with our Lord. How is it that we can receive it all but that there is more to come?

I think this is morphing into a separate post. I'll work on it after the Divine Service today.

Peperkorn

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 7:50 pm by Bloghardt

Pr. Peperkorn writes:

Thank you! Now we're not dealing in vagaries, but in concreteness. If you are intending to make a post that clearly is a direct response to another post, it might be helpful to actually link it. It's kind of the polite thing to do.

With all due respect, this is utter silliness.

To use a Nagelism (I know, that's a naughty word these days...), address the theology, not the person. Heaven forbid we attempt to be objective and leave the person out of the conversation and just do theology. It would just be so... not-Missouri-ish, wouldn't it?

Longing for greener pastures,
- Stan

I'm gonna agree with Stan here.

I think this week we will release some blog/forum guidelines on the discussion page. I am uncomfortable with addressing someone by name on the HT blogs. Deal with the subject, not the person.

Thank you, Stan.

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 8:52 pm by JCC
It is considered good blog etiquette--and ethics--to link to information you quote if it is available online. If not, you cite the source.

For example, this is a quote from an article on blogging ethics, which can be found at http://www.rebeccablood.net/handbook/excerpts/weblog_ethics.html:

"Linking to referenced material allows readers to judge for themselves the accuracy and insightfulness of your statements. Referencing material but selectively linking only that with which you agree is manipulative. Online readers deserve, as much as possible, access to all of the facts--the Web, used this way, empowers readers to become active, not passive, consumers of information."

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 10:52 pm by FemLem1

Yet there is throughout the Scriptures in connection with Baptism and the Sacrament the sense that we receive it all, but that it is also preparing us for that which is to come. There is always more to come with our Lord. How is it that we can receive it all but that there is more to come?

I think this is morphing into a separate post. I'll work on it after the Divine Service today.

Peperkorn

P. Pep,

I thought we already received the full benefits of our baptism? Eph. 2 says we were dead in our transgressions, but God made us alive with Christ (both verbs in the past tense - already happened. Col. 3 tells us "Since you have been raised with Christ... your life is now hidden with Christ in God." 'Have been raised' is passive perfect, 'is now' is present tense (well, "now" is the adverb modifying "is" in the present tense). Verb tense is important in understanding what the Bible tells us; it means the difference between being saved right now or gonna be saved later on (glad it's already happened :-D)
Valete~FL1

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 10:58 pm by Stan Lemon
FemLem1,
Thank you for your post. I think you've ultimately identified the real concern with the theology reflected in Pr. Peperkorn's post above... what is the significance of Baptism and furthermore what is really taking place. Or maybe to pose the question more clearly, do we receive everything in Baptism? Is Baptism as good as it gets? Thanks again for your post FemLem!

Pax,
- Stan

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 11:30 pm by Rev. Todd Peperkorn

P. Pep,

I thought we already received the full benefits of our baptism? Eph. 2 says we were dead in our transgressions, but God made us alive with Christ (both verbs in the past tense - already happened. Col. 3 tells us "Since you have been raised with Christ... your life is now hidden with Christ in God." 'Have been raised' is passive perfect, 'is now' is present tense (well, "now" is the adverb modifying "is" in the present tense). Verb tense is important in understanding what the Bible tells us; it means the difference between being saved right now or gonna be saved later on (glad it's already happened :-D)
Valete~FL1

Well said. Words mean things. So let's look at some of St. Paul's words,

I Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet."[a] But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Notice the future tense throughout here. Does this mean perhaps that our Lord has even more to give? We have received all of Christ's work on the cross and empty tomb in Baptism. Delivered. Yet the Scriptures clearly speak of how there is even more to come. This is true by faith now, and true by sight at the Last Day.

I dunno. Call me crazy, but I think that's great! Maranatha. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

So I'll ask again: Are we seriously suggestion that our Lord has nothing more to give? I'm not denying the efficacy of baptism. I'm saying that Baptism has a PROMISE attached to it. a PROMISE is a present even wtih future consequences.

Well it's time for me to head to bed. Gotta preach on Genesis 3:1-7 in the morning. I'll check back tomorrow and see where we're at.

Ciao!
Peperkorn

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 11:33 pm by Stan Lemon

So I'll ask again: Are we seriously suggestion that our Lord has nothing more to give? I'm not denying the efficacy of baptism. I'm saying that Baptism has a PROMISE attached to it. a PROMISE is a present even wtih future consequences.

Our Lord doesn't suffer himself to be measured by any of the things we measure Him with. I guess my question though is, if we receive the promise of the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, what other promise are you looking for?

That great Luther quote "Baptizatus sum" is truly wonderful because when you translate it, it comes out, "I have been and still am baptized." There is both a past, present and future sense to the Word.

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 23rd, 2005 at 11:49 pm by FemLem1
Maybe the Lord does have something more in store... I won't presume to guess. But what more can we need besides everlasting life?

And one more thing... "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." 2Tim. tells us "This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." So what Paul tells us in the future tense, he speaks of in the past tense in other letters. In fact, earlier in 1Cor 15, Paul says "By this gospel, you have been saved." It almost seems to me that maybe Paul is speaking of those who have not yet been baptized or who do not believe (as in those who say there is no ressurection from the dead), who have not yet received the salvation, which would explain the future tense. I could be completely wrong, and by all means, correct me.

Valete~FL1

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 24th, 2005 at 12:55 pm by Bloghardt

So I'll ask again: Are we seriously suggestion that our Lord has nothing more to give? I'm not denying the efficacy of baptism. I'm saying that Baptism has a PROMISE attached to it. a PROMISE is a present even wtih future consequences.

I think we are struggling with the "now" but "not quite yet"-ness of the Gospel.

You are right, Stan. That is ours right now by faith right now. It is true of us right now. We are in heaven already. As St. Paul says,

"If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above [Higher Things!], where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden [perfect passive of the Gospel!!] with Christ in God." (Col. 3:1-3)

In all our troubles.. in all our storms.. our lives go on where Jesus is... right now.

But, Pastor Peperkorn is right too... there is a resurrection of the dead and a life of the world to come which comes to us on the Last Day. It'll be more glorious than we could ever imagine!

"When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory." (Col. 3:4)

There is a Last Day where our Lord appears and we are with Him in glory... by faith that is true already right now today.

Oh.... another paradox that Madre loves...

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 24th, 2005 at 5:11 pm by john pawlitz
I think all that paradox can basically be attributed to the offence of the cross, i.e. we are offended that we are sinner and saints, and other things that we thing should not go together, but by faith we can acknowledge both. Maybe that's true of now-notyet. Good old paradox. I like mathematical paradoxes, but they aren't nearly as interesting as real, theological ones! It's just like a sword that cuts through your mind.

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 25th, 2005 at 7:20 pm by Madre
I didn't originally link the other post because I wanted to discuss the idea expressed apart from the other article. It didn't matter who said it or where, it was said and there is no orthodox context that makes it true. So I wanted to address the idea since it was brought up to me by a couple of college students. I thought it was interesting to push through, and it certainly was not meant to point out anyone in particular (which is why I didn't link in the first place). I hope it was a mistake but no retraction has been made and the phrase has been defended instead, so I'm not sure whether it's an accurate confession from the original post or if the author wants to repent and correct it.

Re: Little Bit of This...Little Bit of That...

Posted On: October 25th, 2005 at 7:24 pm by Stan Lemon

It is considered good blog etiquette--and ethics--to link to information you quote if it is available online. If not, you cite the source.

For example, this is a quote from an article on blogging ethics, which can be found at http://www.rebeccablood.net/handbook/excerpts/weblog_ethics.html:

"Linking to referenced material allows readers to judge for themselves the accuracy and insightfulness of your statements. Referencing material but selectively linking only that with which you agree is manipulative. Online readers deserve, as much as possible, access to all of the facts--the Web, used this way, empowers readers to become active, not passive, consumers of information."

Mrs. Casey,
The link didn't get activated right because of the trailing colon, here it is again:
http://www.rebeccablood.net/handbook/excerpts/weblog_ethics.html

That article particularly address mis-information, not avoiding talking about people in favor of theological concepts. I think there is a different context to that piece then the concern that is being raised here regarding posting about a theological concept regardless of the person.

Respectfully,
- Stan