Madre's Missives
Inadvertent and Occasionally Intentional Thoughts
Get out the vote
Posted On: March 11th, 2005 at 5:33 pm
In the United States, women have had the right to vote since 1920. Countries where women do not have this right are considered backwards, hyper-traditionalist, oppressive, regimes. We have taken it for granted that we have this power in our government that there is a missionary zeal to go into all the world and promote that all women everywhere should have the right to vote in their countries as well. Today, Sen. Barbara Boxer passed an amendment to a bill before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee urging Saudi Arabia to permit women to vote.
Now, I can see getting riled up about women in other countries being forced into prostitution and slavery, undergoing brutal and disfiguring female circumcision, being mistreated and abused by husbands, etc. But are another country's voting practices something that we really need to be putting into Senate bills?
In the LCMS, women were granted the right to vote in 1969, but some congregations still do not have women's suffrage today. Those that don't are often compared, culturally, to places like Saudi Arabia where there are very restrictive laws for women to follow. Is this a fair comparison?
What is it about voting? Why should/shouldn't women vote? Is denying women the right to vote just another way to keep men in power so they can lord it over the rest of us? Might there be another reason?
Comments:
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 13th, 2005 at 9:32 pm by femlemtwo
Madre? The question that you are asking may not get such an appropriate response for on this blog. I can think of a lot of things that i could say to that.
Now i can say that comparing us culturally to those places like Saudi Arabia is a little much. I cant really see how they could even compare those LCMS churches to a place like that. It seems a little overboard.
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 14th, 2005 at 2:07 am by Madre
I asked the question on purpose. What kind of inappropriate responses do you think it'd get?
Just for fun, do an informal survey of your classmates and teachers tomorrow. Ask them if they'd join a church where women could not vote, and why. See what kind of responses people have.
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 14th, 2005 at 9:16 am by femlemtwo
Ok. TO be perfectly honest, no matter how many times i go to a Higher Things conference and listen to one of your classes on women on the church, i will never be able to understand why we cannot vote! We as women have things to say, and you obviously sat in on one of our churches Voters meetings. Did you take note of how many women were in there? I think that for that meeting and that meeting only, there were more than usual.
I personally think that there are plenty of men in my church particuraly that do think that they lord over the rest of us. And especially since there are some young women in our church that would like to have a major say in what goes on in areas of our church, it just makes it worse, because to me it almost feels like they use our sex and in my case, my youth as a reason to keep us from having a say.
Maybe now i am going a little overboard. I have always tried to understand that, and i dont think that i ever wil be able to. Maybe those are just outrageous thoughts and please, correct me if i am wrong. 
If you think that you can try and explain all of that to me, please do.
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 14th, 2005 at 8:40 pm by femlemone
i really can't say i understand this either. in a church where we have 230-250 people for our average attendence and only about maybe 25 voting males at our last voters meeting, i can see the problem. atthis same meeting there were about 10-15 women there who paid attention, took note, commented, and are very interested in what goes on in their congregation. if the males are not going to put forth the effort to be the voters in the church and the women are willing to do so, why not let them vote?
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 15th, 2005 at 1:12 am by Bloghardt
Come on now, girls, tell us what you really think :P
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 15th, 2005 at 9:03 am by femlemtwo
i think that we are doing just fine on saying what we really think. I may not have set in on the last meeting, but i know what the average attendence is for a meeting! And i also know that there are always women there that are more involved in those meetings than some of the men. I chose not to sit in on them because i dont find a point. I know that i can say things, but if i say something the chances of it being completely ignored are very high.
And padre, if you have something to say about that, i would like to hear it. I mean, do you agree or disagree? :)
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 15th, 2005 at 7:05 pm by Madre
Why vote? What would your voting confess? What other ways can a person express an opinion besides voting? Are there any?
Why don't young men, eligible to vote at meetings, attend and vote? They're your friends and peers, ask them.
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 15th, 2005 at 7:44 pm by femlemtwo
OK. So if women were to vote, that would mean that we would be helping to make major decisions. But then if something was to go wrong with that decision, who are they going to blame? The women that had a vote and a say. I have seen the men in my church in action and i know that they would do that. They have done it before.
And as to how you could express your opinion, writing anonymous letters to the elders/voters/whoever needs to see it? I really dont know. For those that are married and have husbands that will listen, they could tell them what they think and have them speak for them. May sound a little old fashioned but whatever works.
And as to why the young men that could vote dont go and use that given right, i have no idea. I think that maybe i will have a little talk with them...
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 15th, 2005 at 7:50 pm by Madre
For those that are married and have husbands that will listen, they could tell them what they think and have them speak for them. May sound a little old fashioned but whatever works.
Now there's an idea. Husbands speaking so their wives don't have to? What an old-fashioned, crazy idea! I wonder where that arrangement came from...
What about young women like yourself? Or widowed/divorced women? Who speaks for them so they don't have to?
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 15th, 2005 at 8:21 pm by femlemtwo
Now that would be a good idea as to why women should be able to vote, huh?
I would just like to be able to say something once in a while!! There are a lot of things that involve everyone in the church, not just the men. Things that effect just certain groups, and if the women could say anything and it actually meant something, maybe we would be better off.
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 15th, 2005 at 8:31 pm by Madre
So, vote = the only way you really get to say something?
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 16th, 2005 at 12:44 am by femlemone
Anyone who knows me knows that most of the time i am willing to say something that i deem neccessary to be said. voting is not a matter of getting my oppinion out there.but voting is really saying something. to me, being able to vote confesses that i care enough about whatever i have to say to/ what was said to put my vote of confidence behind it. i fully understand where as far as preaching/teaching goes why women are not to do that. but in so called "worldly" matters of the church (finance, expansion, etc.), why shouldn't a woman have a say in what goes on? this is our church, not just the mens church. if we care enough to want to be involved (where those supposed to be doing so - men - are not), then i do not see why we shouldn't.
i know perfectly well that married couples are not always going to agree on something and to say that the man is voting for his household, especally when thewife doesn't agree... start many wars. and as for those without husbands? who are they supposed to have speak for them? their fathers (who i know full well don't always agree)? their brothers? their peers (which often equals the former)?
And on that note - MOP, Stephens, Peebuddy, i pose the question to you: will you attend the voters meeting, become voters and speak for your female peers who currently cannot speak for themselves?
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 16th, 2005 at 9:46 am by femlemtwo
That was going to be my talk with them, femlemone. If they dont want to say anything, we can have them do it for us. And i am not even close to joking.
And i understand that couples dont agree with each l=other. Lord,. i have seen my mom and dad go at it because of crap like that before. And to be perfectly honest, i really cannot think of another way to better express myself. I have seen the women say things and bring things up, and they just get blown off. What htey say goes in one ear and out the other, when it comes to what the female gender has to say. It annoys the crap out of me. Thats just all there is to it. I'm sorry if anyone thinks that i am wrong in thinking that, but i canot find a way not to. I think that the whole thing is messed up. But if it were to be brought up or proposed that women should be able to vote, we would be laughed out of the church. There is always just a few that would agree, but the majority of "men" (if you can call them that) in our church especially, would not even hear of it.
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 16th, 2005 at 10:07 am by Madre
So if a wife disagrees with her husband - who is given to speak for her and the family as their head, always put them before himself, do what is best for them - explain why should she vote again?
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 16th, 2005 at 11:09 am by femlemtwo
Alright. Because the opinions do differ and why shouldnt a woman be able to voice her opinion and if she doesnt agree with something, why should she not be able to say so? If she doesnt like what is going on, she would have no power to stop it if she cant vote. But if she had to privelage to vote, then she would be able too. Is that to much to ask for?
Like it was said by both femlems earlier, the church does not only belong to the men. The women are just as much part of the church as they are. And since such is the case, then we should be able to help decide on what happens, especially when it will effect things that go on with everyone in the church, or groups that we are involved in.
I feel like i am arguing the same things over and over again. What is so hard to understand? How about you give an opinion, instead of a question? :)
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 16th, 2005 at 11:19 am by Madre
So when women do not trust or want to submit to those men given to put them first and do what is best for them, they should be able to stand up and count their vote against them?
Just trying to make you think...you can do it, I know you can...flap a little to blow away the smoke pouring out of your ears
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 17th, 2005 at 1:04 am by femlemone
There seems to be a bit of a repetative arguing going on here. i think i thought of something new: if a woman has a vote, and she is going to disagree with her husband.... they cancel each other's vote out, so it's not helpig them any to vote. it won't make a difference. HOWEVER, if there are women who don't have a male counterpart canceling their vot, then they can make a difference. just a different thought on the subject.
now madre, since we seem to be stuck on questions and you keep asking your lems why should women vote, i ask you why shouldn't they?
Femlemone, it's good on the whole...
Posted On: March 17th, 2005 at 1:13 am by Bloghardt
Hmmm...
I'm thinking...
Creation isn't "really good" until God makes the woman. What does that say about the woman?
If a woman is THAT important in creation, then things should be done before she speaks, right?
It is about gifting. We want to make it about power, but it's not. It's about what is given to a man to do and what is given to a woman to receive. (Eph 5)
Femlemone, it's good on the whole...
Posted On: March 17th, 2005 at 2:15 am by Bloghardt
Hmmm...
I'm thinking...
Creation isn't "really good" until God makes the woman. What does that say about the woman?
If a woman is THAT important in creation, then things should be done before she speaks, right?
It is about gifting. We want to make it about power, but it's not. It's about what is given to a man to do and what is given to a woman to receive. (Eph 5)
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 18th, 2005 at 10:28 am by femlemtwo
Ok. First off, i dont think that women voting has anything to do with power. I could care less about having power. Its just the fact that not everything that goes on in the church that requires a vote or a say in anything about it, is about the men. The women just want to be able have a say that will make a difference somewhere along the line. If we could just be able to vote for the things that we think are right and woyuld work, instead of it only being the men, thats all i am arguing for,
I feel like i am talking to a brick wall!
And Madre? That last comment? i think that you may have gotten the flap that you wanted. :)
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 18th, 2005 at 10:35 am by Madre
You could care less about having power...I just want to be able to have a say that will make a difference...
Contradiction? 'splain how it ain't so, FemLemTwo...
Weren't both your father AND grandfather at the recent voters' meeting? Wasn't a male college student and friend of yours also received into voting membership? There's three men for you to talk to and convince of your position! Do you really think they are out to frustrate you, don't care wht you have to say, aren't interested in your insights, don't want the best for you and the others entrusted to their care?
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 18th, 2005 at 10:40 am by femlemtwo
Alright. How is that wanting to have power when i just want to be able to vote?! I dont understand. I really dont. I keep trying, but when no one offers me reasons as to why we shouldnt, i just dont understand. I know that i can voice my opinion, but i just feel tat it does no good. There are always a few that will listen and it stick, but for the majority, they dont.
Really. IS there something that you want me to say?!
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 18th, 2005 at 4:22 pm by femlemone
my dear #2... voting is having the power to have your say count...
madre: what would you say for a woman who has moved away from her family to a church where she doesn't have someone to vote for her? if she was a member at this new church and wished to take an active role, what would you suggest to her?
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 18th, 2005 at 4:27 pm by Madre
What would I say...
Avail yourself of the elders and pastor(s) of the congregation. Make sure they are aware of your position and share your insights with them. And then trust that they will act in your best interests, whether you agree with their decision or not.
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 20th, 2005 at 7:35 pm by femlemtwo
Ok. So madre? are you allowed to vote at your church? I have been wondering and get too sidetracked by all of your other questions to ask.
And honestly, how important do you think that women voting in the church is? I know that some people think that its pretty important. But what are your honest opinions on it?
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 20th, 2005 at 11:40 pm by Madre
Yes, I am allowed to vote at my church. I do not.
It would be nice to be a member of a church that didn't have women's suffrage, but it is not a deal-breaker.
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 22nd, 2005 at 2:06 pm by Heidi
Some thoughts...
As I was reading all this, I couldn't help but wonder if all of this could also apply to voting for the government, too... because nothing that has come up seems to deal uniquely with the church... so, then, couldn't we also say that our husbands (when we have them...) should vote for us in government elections?
I can't disagree with Madre's reasoning... but, yet, I just don't like the thought of not being able to vote in government elections. But if the reason applies to church elections, why wouldn't it apply to government ones?
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 22nd, 2005 at 4:06 pm by Madre
I struggle with the same issue too. It's gotten me in trouble before with people who didn't follow or agree with my reasoning and REALLY didn't like the inevitable conclusion.
HOWEVER. In this fine country, it is not just a right but a responsibility for all citizens to participate in the government (of the people, for the people, by the people). The fight for women's suffrage, in my mind (at least how I'm seeing it today), is the one to be recognized as a full citizen of the country. Christianity was very progressive in its positions on women even in the first century. Women are recognized as full members of the Church and in congregations without suffrage, they just get to be served by men by having them vote on their behalf and in their best interests.
Re: Get out the vote
Posted On: March 23rd, 2005 at 12:08 am by Heidi
That makes a lot of sense to me...thanks for clearing up the confusion I had on this!