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Posted At: 9:19pm by Rachel Engebretson
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Scholarship applications, radio, forensics and work. Life's been a whirl, as usual.
At the end of my mostly stable school day, I go to the clinic. You see a lot of interesting things at the clinic. Between the heartworm-in-a-can and the 8-oz solid ball of Gorilla Glue removed from a dog's stomach, sometimes you wonder what to think. Before you can say, "Cool!" there's a euthanasia.
No one likes those, they're quite awkward. Someone has a hunting partner, wedding gift, or deceased husband's favorite cat. If you have a pet (And enjoy it, I should add) the death of the pet can be traumatic already, but not even with Christian hope can you say for sure where any species other than humans go after death.
I've often wondered where animals go after they die, but have never been given a straight answer.
Do they go to heaven, as in the "New Eden" mentioned in the Bible?
Do they go the hell, for whatever reason?
Do they float around in a sort of nirvana, in a disconnect between any state of reality?
Or do they just cease to exist entirely?
I ask this to you, if you're reading and have an opinion.
It's probably one of those mysteries of Christ, something not revealed in scripture and none of my concern. But maybe I'm missing something.
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Posted On: January 13th, 2007 at 11:54pm by luvable lutheran |
I believe the answer I've heard pastors say is that it doesn't say in Scripture, so we cannot speculate one way or another.
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Posted On: January 14th, 2007 at 12:16pm by I am not skilled to understand |
I've always come to know that dogs and other animals simply drop out of exsistance once they perish. I think this because animals have no souls, only we do. We are chosen apart by God as his people, no one has ever said "Jesus died on the cross for Scruffy." But, as Lovable Lutheran stated, it is another one of those answers we will only recieve once in Heaven where we are meant to be.
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Posted On: January 20th, 2007 at 8:31pm by Rachel Engebretson |
Thanks to you both for your two cents. Once we die, I'll make sure someone asks God for the answer. 
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Posted On: January 24th, 2007 at 9:14am by revcwirla |
Just a reminder that the arky arky was full of animals - a new creation.
"Behold, I make all things new." (Rev. 21:5)
This is one pastor who expects to see ants at the heavenly picnic, and we'll be as cool with it as they will be, reconciled in the death of Jesus.
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Posted On: February 10th, 2007 at 6:56pm by Paul A. Siems [ + ] |
Hi Rachael,
Before I went to the seminary, I studied to be a veterinarian. So I share your interest and love for animals. I was more agriculturally oriented, however.
The statment often made: "it doesn't say in Scripture" is not very accurate. It is more accurate to say that it is not specifically addressed by the Scriptures.
The Scriptures declare that the cosoms was created for Man. After the fall the entire creation was placed under the curse for Man's sake. Man alone was created in God's image. Man alone was made to be a living soul. He was not given a soul but was made to be a soul by the breath (ruach/pneumatos/Sprit) of God. Because of God's image in which Man is made, killing of Man must be punished both in man and beast by death. God gave the animals to Man for food and clothing and sacrifice. Animals are never spoken of as sacred except for the purpose of being sacrificed on behalf of man.
Animals are not living souls. They are wonderful gifts and servants of man created by God for this purpose. They do not survive death.
The Scriptures do speak of animals in heaven. The Scriptures also speak of the wedding feast in heaven. They at least seem to imply that meat will be eaten at the feast. The animals will be gentle like before the curse, but otherwise no change is indicated.
Christ died for sinners, not for animals. The resurrection unto everlasting life is for the children of God who have been redeemed and baptized into God's kingdom, and the resurrection unto everlasting fire is for men who are doomed to suffer with the damned angels.
The Scriptures do not directly say that animals do not rise from the dead unto everlasting life because this question arises from misplaced emotional attachments. Love is commanded for God and for neighbor. But in our modern silliness we look upon animals more favorably than we do our fellow man. Part of this is due to being so far removed from the earth from which we are created. Many people today are so far removed from any activity with the soil (exept to scape it off the shoe or to shower it from the body) that reality becomes confused.
St. Paul speaks of this confusion in Romans 1 and 2, where man substitutes worship of the creature for the proper worship of the Creator. Then everything gets mixed up. Animals in some cultures are elevated to godhood. In modern technological societies, they are merely elevated to equality with man, or sometimes above man.
Do dogs go to heaven? No. Will dogs be in heaven? Unless the Scriptural passages speaking of animals in heaven are figurative, Yes, dogs will be in the new heaven/earth.
May we form emotional attachments to our pets? We may if we so desire. Should we also love them? Not in the sense that we are to love God and neighbor. The Scriptures warn us against such. Love is reserved for God and Man.
What about the "love" that a dog has for its master? God very clearly demonstrated in Genesis 2 that this is not the same thing. He marched each of the animals in front of Adam so that Adam could see that the animals were not created to live in this kind of relationship to Man. Men were created as the "gods" of this cosmos, to rule over everything under God as His beloved children.
For what it is worth.
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Posted On: February 11th, 2007 at 7:22pm by Rachel Engebretson |
Pastor Siems,
I appreciate your insightful and informative comment. It was certainly helpful.
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Posted On: February 13th, 2007 at 1:29am by Rick Ritchie [ + ] |
Christ died for sinners, not for animals. The resurrection unto everlasting life is for the children of God who have been redeemed and baptized into God's kingdom, and the resurrection unto everlasting fire is for men who are doomed to suffer with the damned angels.
I agree. We are engaging in speculation when we try to answer this. But why not have more fun?
If the everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, but people end up going there anyway, then it would seem that entities can end up in places not prepared specifically for them. So perhaps Christ will say to the dogs on his right, "Enter into the joy of your masters."
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Posted On: February 13th, 2007 at 8:16pm by Rachel Engebretson |
Interesting theory. It doesn't coincide well with not being able to take anything on earth to heaven; however, I enjoy the thought of being able to let my pets tag along. Thanks for the input.
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Posted On: February 13th, 2007 at 9:41pm by Rick Ritchie [ + ] |
Rachel, upon what Scripture is not being able to take anything on earth to heaven based. I've heard the line "You can't take it with you." But it's more a proverbial saying. Or is there somewhere else? (That's an honest question.)
The point of my speculation was not to say I know any better than anyone else how this works. But speculation is speculation. C.S. Lewis talks about how we can fall into accepting harsher speculations for emotional reasons, too. Because they sound bold or stark.
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Posted On: February 13th, 2007 at 9:48pm by Paul A. Siems [ + ] |
"But why not have more fun?"
If you're looking to play around with the Scriptures, I'm not your guy. :)
Nevertheless, I do find the truth to be fun and joyous beyond anything else in the world. For me, this only happens when the Scriptural fun is in the Scriptures, not forced upon them.
I think that I'll write something for the blog regarding jokes and cute stories in sermons. While I'm sure that Jesus had fun and laughed and played both as a child and as a man, I don't know of a single recorded incident of such recorded in the New Testament. Nor is there any such recorded for the apostles in their ministry to the Church.
Do you suppose the Holy Spirit means for us to understand something from this?
How did Jesus state it? Oh, yes:
Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
While I don't believe that He means that we cannot be funny and humorous, it does seem clear that we are to be serious about where our humor leads us.
Food for thought.
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Posted On: February 13th, 2007 at 9:59pm by Paul A. Siems [ + ] |
Rick, you asked:
Rachel, upon what Scripture is not being able to take anything on earth to heaven based. I've heard the line "You can't take it with you." But it's more a proverbial saying. Or is there somewhere else? (That's an honest question.)
1 Tim 6:7
For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
This text is part of the funeral/commital liturgy. There are other passages as well, but this one comes first to my mind.
There is one thing, however, that we do take with us, "and their works do follow them." (Rev. 14:13)
These however, follow us only because they are actually God's works which He has prepared before hand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:10)
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Posted On: February 13th, 2007 at 10:09pm by Paul A. Siems [ + ] |
Dear Rachael,
I have written a substantial amount on your blog's comment section.
Perhaps more than I should. After all, it is your blog.
It is hard for me to know sometimes when I have stepped over the line of being helpful and being intrusive.
Just in case I did not notice the line, please forgive any intrusiveness on my part. (Especially since I answered a question that was directed to you.)
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Posted On: February 14th, 2007 at 10:21am by Rachel Engebretson |
Pastor Siems,
Thank you for the apology, but I greatly encourage discussion on my blog and its comments, and am very glad you responded so thoroughly. I hope to learn from the insights of others, especially pastors and those more educated than I.
I invite as many comments as anyone wishes to contribute.
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Posted On: February 14th, 2007 at 10:37am by Rachel Engebretson |
Rachel, upon what Scripture is not being able to take anything on earth to heaven based. I've heard the line "You can't take it with you." But it's more a proverbial saying. Or is there somewhere else? (That's an honest question.)
Aside from the verse Pastor Siems provided (1 Tim 6:7:
For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out), the first thought which comes to my mind is the parable of the rich fool.
I believe this is referenced from Luke 12. Correct me if I'm wrong - Nevertheless, recall how the rich fool was concerned about his earthly wealth and how he was going to keep it. In the end, he let his possessions compromise his faith.
Consider also that while we live in a corrupt, sinful world - Heaven is perfect! To take anything from earth with us to heaven would not make much sense compared to perfection.
Anyway, long answer to your honest question. Thank you for the discussion.
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Posted On: February 20th, 2007 at 11:04am by Salinger [ + ] |
I somewhat disagree with Pastor Siem's view on the matter. I do this in the sense of serious theological discourse, not out of any disrespect. Many theologians ( C.S. Lewis is one example) postulated that pets do indeed go to heaven as part of the "New Creation" in which all things in Christ are created anew. Animals do not have immortal souls and do not survive death in the sense that humans do; I think we're all in agreement on that. But Revelation speaks of all creation being created anew through Christ at the end of time, and I see nothing in scripture that could contradict that our pets will not be a part of the making of all creation anew. The wording of Revelation doesn't speak of a completly separate, new creation, but rather of the current creation being made new with Christ reigning with redeemed humantiy as co-heirs over the new creation. I think that this distinction (creation being made anew rather than a completely new, separate creation) may provide our pets in heaven.
One must also consider the fall. The fall was not just the fall of man (although that was the primary component) but that man's sin condemned all of creation. Pastor Siemens correctly states that all creation was placed under a curse because of man, but then states that "God gave the animals to Man for food and clothing and sacrifice." This cannot be entirely true because prior to the fall, death did not exist and there was no need to have animals for food (all was in the garden) clothing (man was naked) and animal sacrifice (sacrifice requires a redemptive aspect which was not necessary). It was only after the fall that animals began to serve this purpose, which including subservient companionship. Since Adam's sin doomed creation, so the redemptive act of Christ, the new Adam, redeems all of creation through man, and will bring "all creation to Himself" at the end of time.
This is why I believe that there is a case to be made that the pets that we love (love in the sense of stewardship, not the same Agape love that we are charged with for God and others) will someday be part of the New Creation at the end of time. They may not be in heaven when we arrive after death, but they could very well be there at the end of the world.
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Posted On: July 03rd, 2008 at 3:36pm by micah |
all we can do is hope untill we all die wil we know the truth, i recently put my 16 year old dog ive had her scince i was born so it was hard to come to a conclusion on where her "soul" would go like i said wel never know all we can do is assume
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