Rev. Cwirla's Blogosphere

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Cor. 1:25)

"Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 20th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

This is a movie about the politics of science. Politics in science, you say with a gasp? Say it isn’t so! Next thing you’ll be telling me is that there is politics in religion, too. Yes, Virginia, there most certainly is, but that’s another bedtime story for another time.

I wouldn’t call “Expelled” a documentary in the narrow sense of the genre. It’s more of an intelligently designed anti-propaganda piece. Using the Berlin Wall as a metaphor for the wall of division between atheistic Big Science and theistic Religion, Stein builds the case that academic science is now on a witch hunt for religion. It builds on the firing of some scientists from the Smithsonian and universities, allegedly for their belief that the cosmos bears the marks of “intelligent design.”

The movie plays out as a conflict of good vs. evil - the white hats being worn by the mostly young, hip, geeky-cool, highly articulate, deeply philosophical “intelligent design” guys; the black hats being the beady-eyed, yellow-toothed, sweaty atheists of Big Science, with New Atheism’s chief evangelist Richard Dawkins playing the role of his own slimy self, albeit in a somewhat over the top way that will surely cause him to be overlooked at next year’s academy awards.

Stein’s movie style is at once engaging and irritating. He drops old clips from newsreels and other black and white footage to make the abrupt, stream of consciousness transition from one point of “discovery” to the next. The hand-held camera style gives a certain Blair Witch look to the film, not to mention a Blair Witch sense of vertigo. No, that's not a reference to evolution’s poster girl Eugenie Scott.

Maybe it’s just me, but I have a problem with documentary filmmakers who insert themselves into their own movies and become the hero. Michael Moore does this as does Ben Stein in this movie, becoming the great advocate for free speech in the science academy. To me, this is a self-serving exercise of the reporter becoming the story.

I was personally entertained by the various ways people organized or didn’t organize their desks and books, noting “filers” and “pilers” in both camps. I happen to be a piler, and reveled in the sight of the guy who was nearly buried under piles and boxes of books. I feel so much better about my study.

Positively, the movie is a good opportunity to meet some of the players face to face, albeit a little too close for comfort. What is it about science that lends to bad complexion? The movie does correctly point out that this is a political war of competing world views - atheism vs. theism - and that academic science seems to have pitched its tent on the side of atheism. It calls into question the so-called “objectivity” of science, especially when religious implications are involved.

The question on the table is this: Is the concept of “intelligent design” rejected by science because it is not actually science or because of a political war being waged against religion in the academy? The answer is much more nuanced than the movie presents. The movie never really explains what “Intelligent Design” actually entails, and presumes that the viewer already knows.

Intelligent Design is an attempt to explain the apparent ordering of the universe. Evolutionists say that the order of things is an inherent property of material, that given sufficient time, things will order themselves by a self-guided process of natural selection. Intelligent Design people argue that the statistical odds of that are infinitesimally small to the point of nearly impossible. Instead, they claim that the various ordered properties observed in the world, such as the genetic code, biological systems, the cosmos, etc. are evidence of “intelligent design.”

Of course, scientists, especially of the atheist stripe, immediately rush in and have a God-attack, because to suggest “intelligent design” is to suggest an intelligent Designer. And no matter how many times the intelligent design crowd swears on a stack of Bill Dembski’s books that it isn’t so, it is so. You can’t have design without a designer.

The arch-bad guy Richard Dawkins admits as much in a priceless scene of sweaty self-contradiction that alone is worth the price of admission. Pressed by Stein regarding the ultimate cause of life on earth, Dawkins proposes that it might have been seeded by some form of intelligence, likely from beyond our solar system, which of course would have been seeded by some other form of yet higher intelligence, ad infinitum. Yes, that’s right. Dawkins believes that the intelligent designers of life as we know it may have been aliens. When you don’t believe in God, you’ve got to believe in something.

The problem, as Dawkins illustrates nicely, is that the question of ultimate cause and origin cannot be answered by science. “By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear” (Heb 11:2). You can’t do the Creation Experiment, so empirical science isn’t really in the game. And you can stare at rocks and fossils until your teeth turn yellow and your skin looks bad and you still won’t be able to say definitively who or what (if anyone) is responsible or how it happened. Yes, Virginia, science is limited in what it can teach us. That’s why there are other departments at your college, so be sure to enroll in a few other classes on your way to your evolutionary biology degree.

The “naturalist presuppostion,” that natural events must have a natural cause, is perfectly workable in empirical science. We don’t expect a chemist in the lab to cry out “It’s a miracle!” when he observes an unexpected result. That would be very bad science. Empirical science reasons from specific to general, from observation to theory. It deals with penultimate causes, not ultimate causes. A chemist knows what causes polystyrene, but he doesn’t know what caused carbon.

In the study of origins and ultimate causes, the naturalist presupposition is, in effect, presuppositional atheism. The Creatior is ruled out as a possible cause for creation. But the study of origins is a forensic science, reasoning from observations to cause, which is always a circumstantial case. And the good forensic researcher must be open to any and all possibilities, including aliens or God.

What has happened in academic science is that the empirical sciences have rushed to the aid of their weak-eyed sister, the forensic science of origins under the grand banner of Science. This has become a political war of Science vs Religion, when it should be a matter of empirical science vs forensic science and the limitations of the latter when it comes to the study of ultimate cause and origin.

Even if evolution were to collapse tomorrow, the periodic table, molecular orbital theory, quantum mechanics, and the genetic code would all continue to operate without a glitch, because they do not rely on a materialistic presupposition of ultimate cause. What began as Darwin’s observation about the adaptation of species, grew into a hypothesis about the origin of species, which became a hypothesis for the origin of the universe, which became the answer to life, the universe, and everything (which readers of Douglas Adams know is 42). Theology, which was once called the “queen of the sciences” has been expelled from the academy and left to talk to itself in the academic ghettos of theology departments and seminaries, while science has become the new religion. The Dawkins vision of a world where theism is on the wane and atheism is the new religion is taking shape in the hallowed halls of academia.

At first viewing, “Expelled” seems to go down a slippery slop from evolution to atheism to nazi eugenics to social nihilism. The testimonies of the former Christians turned atheists are chilling. I thought the movie went too far with its shots of Dawkins and Eugenie Scott interspersed with nazi newsreel footage.

But a member of my congregation noted that this might be a clever case of turnabout is fair play on the part of Stein. The atheist evolutionists argue that ID is a wedge that will lead to religion taking over science and the establishment of a creationist theocracy that will stifle all academic freedom. But they have no problem with science taking over religion, or ID proponents being censured and fired. They also seem to have no regard for the ethical implications of evolutionary atheism. Stein delivers a taste of their own medicine, and they don’t seem to like it.

I would have liked to have heard from some Christians who also hold to some version of evolution, such as Dr. Francis Collins of the Human Genome Project, who writes openly about his Christian faith as a scientist. Christians who believe in evolution are viewed as inconsistent by both creationists and evolutionists. At least the two agree on something.

Go see the movie and have a good conversation. To listen to him whine about his appearance in this movie, you’d think Dawkins had just appeared in Borat. I love outrage on the part of people who make a living saying outrageous things, such as Dawkins' atheist manifesto "The God Delusion." Even with Borat, the people had only themselves to blame for looking like idiots. It may be a challenge, but I encourage you to pray for these folks. They are about as darkened as darkness can be.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened." (Romans 1:18-21)

Edited on: April 22nd, 2008 11:46 am

Comments:

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 20th, 2008 at 8:39 pm by luvable lutheran
Thanks for this review. It's helpful since I haven't seen the movie yet. I'm curious as to your thoughts on Professor PZ Myers who was interviewed? I need to talk to friends who attended a retreat this weekend featuring this professor debating Professor Angus Menuge from CUW.

Secondly, I'm glad the point has been brought up about the so called one-sided coin that academia likes to play, especially in science. Evolutionists or non religious types love to downplay religion and promote other ideas such as diversity, post modernism, being welcoming/loving, etc. However, when they exclude religion (ie Christianity), they are actually be less diverse, more close minded, etc. and more hypocritic. As a scientist, I've encountered it quite a bit, although not as a direct confrontation.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 20th, 2008 at 9:01 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
Myers is having his own little hissy over at PZ's playhouse, claiming he was having a Borat moment too. He says he would have been far more combative had he known he was involved in a creationist propaganda movie. Too bad. As it is, I didn't even recall him being in the movie until I saw his picture. Nothing memorable.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 12:17 am by Robin Lee
Pastor, thanks for posting this review.

FYI, the "whining" link didn't work for me, then I noticed it has a close parenthesis at the end. The correct link is:

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2008/03/dawkins_crashes.html

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 6:54 am by C. David Parsons
EXPELLED IS OPENING THE DOOR FOR THE QUEST FOR RIGHT.

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The text begins simply enough, tracing the history of Darwin from an impressionable youth influenced by atheists and agnostics on every hand to a full-fledged agnostic in his own right. The matter may be summed up by the inclusion of Darwin's sentiment regarding the Creator. In a bitter denial of Christianity, Darwin complained that he "could hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine." Darwin charged his original belief in God to the "constant inculcation" (instruction or indoctrination) in a belief in God" during his childhood, which was as difficult to cast down as "for a monkey to throw off its instinctive fear and hatred of a snake.... Darwin purposed in his heart that he would no longer retain God in his knowledge. And the scientific illiterate upstart sought to entrap the innocents in the classroom in his web of deceit.

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Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 2:26 pm by scripto
"The movie never really explains what "intelligent design" actually entails, and presumes that the viewer knows."

Exactly. The problem is nobody knows. I suppose design is like pornography, we'll know it when we see it. Without a testable mechanism, a timeline, a design event, or anything discrete enough to be predictable, ID doesn't even rise to the level of a hypothesis, let alone an alternate theory of biological diversification.

I think you are quite right that science is limited to what it does. Myers and Dawkins may think evolutionary theory confirms their atheism but that idea has little to do with the accuracy of evolutionary theory. And countering that idea by confirming ID as an alternative for theists without offering any evidence makes even less sense. The producers set up a false dichotomy by excluding interviews with scientists like Francis Collins and Ken Miller. The ID'ers are intellectually dishonest and their tactics have all the hallmarks of a targeted public relations spin campaign. Crying persecution is one of the hallmarks of crank science.

I believe you would find that a quick search in pub med would show that evolutionary theory, far from being a weak sister to the "hard sciences", is as robust as any of them.

By the way, in order to leave this comment, I was required to encode the letters "priapiac" in the spam filter. I would think that this borders on the inappropriate.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 2:44 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
I guess even random captcha letters are capable of self-organization. What are the odds of that?

Notch another one for evolution!

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 2:52 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"The problem is nobody knows. I suppose design is like pornography, we'll know it when we see it."

I agree. I'm not convinced that "design" is a scientifically detectible property like color or temperature. It may very well be a quality like "beauty," in which case it's in the eye of the beholder.

On the other hand, I am quite unconvinced that the evolutionary hypothesis adequately accounts for either the diversity or the origin of life.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 3:19 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"Without a testable mechanism, a timeline, a design event, or anything discrete enough to be predictable, ID doesn't even rise to the level of a hypothesis, let alone an alternate theory of biological diversification."

Hmmm. Does evolution rise to this level?

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 8:28 pm by scripto

I guess even random captcha letters are capable of self-organization. What are the odds of that?

Notch another one for evolution!

Hah! Highly improbable, but it happened. Might be more like evolution than you would think since the joke making function didn't appear until the letters mutated and in addition the extra non-functional letter didn't impede the function. Of course, I suppose whether it was a joke or not would depend on the enviornment.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 8:45 pm by Malcolm
You said
"The atheist evolutionists argue that ID is a wedge that will lead to religion taking over science and the establishment of a creationist theocracy that will stifle all academic freedom."

In fact the "Wedge" metaphor comes directly from the heart of the ID movement - the Discovery Institute.

This Christian think-tank published an internal document called "the Wedge of Intelligent Design" which was leaked on to the internet in 1999. The document explicitly lays out their 20 year plan to introduce ID into public debate, and educational institutions with the aim of bringing evangelical Christianity into the centre of American public life.
Look up "The Wedge Document" on google - it will give you some perspective and background on this debate.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 8:47 pm by scripto

"Without a testable mechanism, a timeline, a design event, or anything discrete enough to be predictable, ID doesn't even rise to the level of a hypothesis, let alone an alternate theory of biological diversification."

Hmmm. Does evolution rise to this level?

Yessir. The fused human chromosome #2 found as predicted, Enodgenous retroviri found as predicted in comparative human/chimp genome studies, Tiktaalik rosea found in strata where it was predicted. The science is so robust it generates thousands of testable hypotheses under the general umbrella of evolutionary theory. Even the conflicts are the mark of a vibrant field of study. Unfortunately for the ID guys they seem unable or unwilling to do the work necessary to be taken seriously.

Sorry about the comment duplication. Copy error. Another example of evolution in action.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 21st, 2008 at 10:21 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
We can easily take care of the comment duplication by the imposition of an outside higher intelligence. No problem there.

Great stuff. No doubt about it. But I really don't see how this testifies to the robustness of a hypothesis that everything evolved from some protocell in a primordial soup. It seems to me that the predictive power of evolution is somewhat overstated and overrated. Are these observations actually necessitated by the evolutionary hypothesis? I'm sure that the conflicts make for a vibrant field of study, as conflicts always do. But does any of this necessarily derive from the central presupposition of evolution?

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 22nd, 2008 at 12:05 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"Look up "The Wedge Document" on google - it will give you some perspective and background on this debate."

Wedge Document: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/wedge.html

1. The Discovery Institute is not a Christian think tank, though it certainly has Christians, as well as people of other faiths, involved on its staff. The concept of a an intelligent Creator/Designer is not uniquely Christian.

2. The Wedge Document nowhere lists among its goals "bringing evangelical Christianity into the centre of American public life."

3. The Wedge Document outlines a 20 year public relations strategy to bring the concepts of Intelligent Design into both science and religion.

4. The "wedge" of the Wedge Document is the strategic and systematic separation of the materialist philosophical presupposition that underlies the evolutionary hypothesis, from the definition of science.

The position of the Wedge Document is that it is not necessary for science to presuppose dogmatically that natural events must by definition have natural causes, including events of origin and ultimate causation.

Agree with it or not, it's important to represent the positions farily from their own documents.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 22nd, 2008 at 12:37 pm by scripto
" But I really don't see how this testifies to the robustness of a hypothesis that everything evolved from some protocell in a primordial soup

However life began, the progression, both genetically and geologically, indicates descent with modification from common ancestry. There are no competing hypotheses that fit the evidence.

"It seems to me that the predictive power of evolution is somewhat overstated and overrated"

It is better than the alternative which makes no discrete predictions at all. Design depends on the elimination of evolutionary explanations which makes it pretty much a useless approach. You still have to do the research based on evolutionary principles.

"Are these observations actually necessitated by the evolutionary hypothesis? "

Maybe not singly, but as a combined body of evidence they do. Until ID identifies a process or even an event it is a non-starter.

"But does any of this necessarily derive from the central presupposition of evolution?"

The theory of natural selection was developed as the best explanation for the gathered evidence, not a presupposition. Most of the groundwork was done by scientists working in the framework of natural theology. It was this failure of natural theology to adequately account for the evidence that opened the door for natural selection. Even if Darwin had never lived, the theory would have been developed.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 22nd, 2008 at 12:44 pm by scripto
"The position of the Wedge Document is that it is not necessary for science to presuppose dogmatically that natural events must by definition have natural causes, including events of origin and ultimate causation."

Any other approach would be unworkable, which is why the scientific method developed the way it did. Science is limited to what science does.

ID proponents can't play the game so they want to change the rules. That's dishonest.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 22nd, 2008 at 1:19 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"Any other approach would be unworkable, which is why the scientific method developed the way it did. Science is limited to what science does. "

Arguments regarding ultimate causation and origin are retroductive rather than inductive. Empirical science reasons inductively (arguing from specific to general); forensic science (the study of past causality) reasons retroductive, (arguing from observable to cause).

The scientific method did not develop by making a materialistic assumption regarding ultimate causality.

As I said, the chemist knows and can demonstrate what causes polystyrene, but he cannot know nor demonstrate what caused carbon and hydrogen, nor is such ultimate causality relevant to the science of chemistry.

Retroductive (forensic) science does not employ the "scientific method" in the same way that inductive (empirical) science does.

Failure to recognize this difference would be likewise dishonest.

Science is indeed limited to what science does; science should not speculate in areas of metaphysics, philosophy, and theology. Both ID and the materialist presupposition of evolution are metaphysical, philosophical, theological presuppositions.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 22nd, 2008 at 3:15 pm by scripto
"Retroductive (forensic) science does not employ the "scientific method" in the same way that inductive (empirical) science does.

Failure to recognize this difference would be likewise dishonest.

Well, then it's good for us that modern evolutionary theory employs both. Proposed mechanisms of evolutionary change (mutation, selection, drift, etc.) are observable in the now and can be exrapolated to general trends, past and future. Observe patterns in the fossil record can be matched to genetic patterns in extant organisms. Retroductive reasoning has certainly born fruit with testible predictions. Multiple points of converging evidence from two disciplines, genetic and morphological, indicate that evolutionary theory is on the right track. It's not like they are sitting around making this stuff up in order to fit it in to some kind of required evolutionary paradigm. The chips fall where they may.

"As I said, the chemist knows and can demonstrate what causes polystyrene, but he cannot know nor demonstrate what caused carbon and hydrogen, nor is such ultimate causality relevant to the science of chemistry"

Nor is it relevant to biological evolution, which is what I am discussing here. And I believe a physicist may have some ideas as to what "caused" carbon and hydrogren. I'm sure someone is asking those questions.

"Science is indeed limited to what science does; science should not speculate in areas of metaphysics, philosophy, and theology.

I agree. And visa versa (except maybe philosophy).

"Both ID and the materialist presupposition of evolution are metaphysical, philosophical, theological presuppositions.

The question remains how do you incorporate the non-material into the material sciences? And why pick on biology? All science uses the same methodological naturalism. I don't see how limiting oneself to finding material mechanisms in a material world is a metaphysical presupposition. What else would be practical?

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 23rd, 2008 at 9:20 am by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"However life began, the progression, both genetically and geologically, indicates descent with modification from common ancestry. There are no competing hypotheses that fit the evidence."

"However life began..." - Conceding that science must presuppose life and cannot deal with ultimate origin.

Can one forensically tell the difference between progressive descent with modification from common ancestry and progressive design by a common designer? If I have three watches that share common parts and mechanisms, do I necessarily conclude that they derive from a common ur-watch? Or do I conclude that they share a common designer? And does it actually make a difference?

"The chips fall where they may."

Is it valid retroductive reasoning to rule out a cause a priori by way of presupposition? Is it sound forensic science to rule out murder as a mechanism for death because "we don't have murders in this community"?

"The theory of natural selection was developed as the best explanation for the gathered evidence, not a presupposition."

Is it the "best explanation" for:

1. the adaptation of a species
2. the diversity of species
3. the origin of life
4. the origin of the universe
5. the way the universe works

"The question remains how do you incorporate the non-material into the material sciences? And why pick on biology? All science uses the same methodological naturalism."

But not all science is forensic. Methodological naturalism is a necessary self-imposed limitation for empirical science and the scientific method. The physicist does not explain an unusual experimental observation by saying, "It's a miracle." Unless, of course, it's cold fusion, but then that was disproven by failure to reproduce the experiment.

Is the study of ultimate causality and origin properly termed a "material science?" When investigating a past event forensically, can you rule out a cause a priori?

Is forensic science limited to the material?

If natural selection is a creative process and the mechanism of diversity:

1. Why do we protect endangered species?
2. Why do we observe a decrease in species?
3 Why do we assist weaker human beings and rescue marine mammals?
4. Why are we concerned about climate change?

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 24th, 2008 at 12:47 pm by scripto
"However life began..." - Conceding that science must presuppose life and cannot deal with ultimate origin."

I am conceding no such thing. Don't know does not mean can't know.

"Can one forensically tell the difference between progressive descent with modification from common ancestry and progressive design by a common designer? If I have three watches that share common parts and mechanisms, do I necessarily conclude that they derive from a common ur-watch? Or do I conclude that they share a common designer? And does it actually make a difference?

Ur-watch? You should trademark that. I'll buy one. I think you are ignoring the observed progressions as well as comparison. Adaptation of form to different function implies the designer required a lot of practice. Not to mention the fact that for some mysterious reason the designer decided to encode the same non-functional retrovirus sequences at the same loci in closely related species. Then there is the problem of the same protein having many functional analogues (some I believe more efficient) and pretty much all life sharing just one basic configuration or birth defects, the extinction of 99% or so species that have ever lived, parasites, etc. My guess is that you don't view the designer as bumbling around, cobbling stuff together out of spare parts.

"Is it valid retroductive reasoning to rule out a cause a priori by way of presupposition? Is it sound forensic science to rule out murder as a mechanism for death because "we don't have murders in this community"?

It is all based on background knowlege. We wouldn't rule out murder because we know people are capable of it, no matter what community they live in. We can't assess whether design or evolution is more likely without having some idea of mechanism for design. Evolution posits several, ID none.

"Is it the "best explanation" for:

1. the adaptation of a species -
yes
2. the diversity of species -
one of several proposed
3. the origin of life -
a chemistry problem
4. the origin of the universe -
no
5. the way the universe works -
don't know

" Methodological naturalism is a necessary self-imposed limitation for empirical science and the scientific method."

I don't see any other way.

"Is forensic science limited to the material?"

It has to be. Again, I don't see any other way. There is nothing immaterial about human agency, which is the only "intelligent design" we look for in forensic science.

"If natural selection is a creative process and the mechanism of diversity:

1. Why do we protect endangered species?
2. Why do we observe a decrease in species?
3 Why do we assist weaker human beings and rescue marine mammals?
4. Why are we concerned about climate change?

My hope is that as rational beings (potentially, anyway) we can reach a consensus to transcend the brute forces of selection. I have no idea whether natural selection plays a role in human culture.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 24th, 2008 at 6:58 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"My guess is that you don't view the designer as bumbling around, cobbling stuff together out of spare parts."

So we exclude the idea of "design" because it doesn't fit our preconceived notion of how a properly dignified "designer" should do it? That's an interesting "scientific" perspective. Since when does science deal in aesthetic judgments?

"We can't assess whether design or evolution is more likely without having some idea of mechanism for design. Evolution posits several, ID none."

I have a great design for a house; I have no idea how to build it. In this sense, ID and Evolution talk past one another. This is why ID and Evolution fundamentally talk past one another.

" Methodological naturalism is a necessary self-imposed limitation for empirical science and the scientific method."

I don't see any other way.

Nor do I. This is why the study of ultimate causality and origin is not properly "science," though it may employ scientific data.

"My hope is that as rational beings (potentially, anyway) we can reach a consensus to transcend the brute forces of selection."

So the rationality of human beings transcends evolution? I would have thought that rationality was part of the evolutionary process, a natural selection of neurons that liked to fire more than others. Now I am confused. Are human beings part of evolution or not? If we are, then what business do we have in interfering with natural selection? And how dare we call it "brute force"?

Natural selection is the elegant way in which species adapt to the changes in their environment (some better than others, I guess), and how a diversity of life sprang forth from a single proto-cell (even as 99% of species went extinct). Isn't assisting the weak interfering with nature's way of recreating and improving itself?

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 24th, 2008 at 8:21 pm by scripto
"So we exclude the idea of "design" because it doesn't fit our preconceived notion of how a properly dignified "designer" should do it? That's an interesting "scientific" perspective. Since when does science deal in aesthetic judgments?

Fine. It's a poor argument against design. I just can't find any adequate arguments for design. It's perfectly possible the designer(s) decided to take 3.5 billion years to work out the kinks using an undetectable non-material process that just happened to mimic evolution by observed natural processes.

"I have a great design for a house; I have no idea how to build it. In this sense, ID and Evolution talk past one another. This is why ID and Evolution fundamentally talk past one another.

OK. Different languages. One is science, one is something else.

Nor do I. This is why the study of ultimate causality and origin is not properly "science," though it may employ scientific data.

I don't understand how ultimate causality applies to the study of evolution. I think you are asking for more than I'm discussing here.

"So the rationality of human beings transcends evolution?

I said I would hope so

"I would have thought that rationality was part of the evolutionary process, a natural selection of neurons that liked to fire more than others. Now I am confused. Are human beings part of evolution or not?"

Sure, we evolved. That is pretty clear. I imagine our global culture has change the dynamic of evolution for our species. I really have no idea how selection works in our culture or whether it does.

" If we are, then what business do we have in interfering with natural selection?

We all want our kids to survive. Just like every other living thing on the planet.

"And how dare we call it "brute force"?

It's blind, deaf and unaware, too. I doubt if it cares.

"Natural selection is the elegant way in which species adapt to the changes in their environment (some better than others, I guess), and how a diversity of life sprang forth from a single proto-cell (even as 99% of species went extinct). Isn't assisting the weak interfering with nature's way of recreating and improving itself?

I don't think it's a matter of improvement, but a matter of filling available niches in a changing enviornment. What works today may not tomorrow.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 24th, 2008 at 9:01 pm by malcolm

If natural selection is a creative process and the mechanism of diversity:

1. Why do we protect endangered species?
2. Why do we observe a decrease in species?
3 Why do we assist weaker human beings and rescue marine mammals?
4. Why are we concerned about climate change?

The natural processes that produced todays life forms and climate took place over vast periods of time stretching into many millions of years. Human activities can and do destroy the products of those millions of tiny cumulative changes in an mere decades - an eyeblink in terms of geological and evolutionary time.

The pure evolutionists answer to Q3 and 4 would involve "evolved empathy". For social animals such as humans, the desire to help others is a beneficial trait in the long term. If you help others when you can, then they're more likely to help you when you need it.

That trait translates empirically into the fact that we tend to feel good when we help others (be they weaker humans, marine mammals, or our potential descendants).

I find this explanation simpler, and hence more likely to be true, than one which needs to posit the existence of a supernatural being who magically inserted a sense of right and wrong into humans at some point in the past.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 25th, 2008 at 10:53 am by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"Human activities can and do destroy the products of those millions of tiny cumulative changes in an mere decades - an eyeblink in terms of geological and evolutionary time."

We human beings seem to really mess up evolution. It's hard to believe we're part of the process, but then we exercise intelligence, so we can't be part of the process.

The pure evolutionists answer to Q3 and 4 would involve "evolved empathy"....

Kind of an "Adam Smith Theory of Evolution" where every creature, excuse me, thing pursues it's own enlightened self-interest. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. At least before I eat you, or vice versa.

I suppose this would also account for evolved sense of justice, an evolved sense of beauty, and an evolved sense of humor. I take it then that racism, would be a positive trait, evolutionarily speaking.

"That trait translates empirically into the fact that we tend to feel good when we help other...."

I wonder where the feeling of transcendence and the existence of a divine being comes from. Most folks seem to have one, at least until most recent times. Perhaps we've evolved beyond that, thanks to science.

"I find this explanation simpler, and hence more likely to be true...."

Ah yes, you can't beat Occam's razor for a nice close shave with the truth. (William of Occam was a Franciscan friar, by the way.)

Which is simpler: To say that nothing somehow turned itself into everything or that God made everything out of nothing?

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 25th, 2008 at 11:39 am by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"We can't assess whether design or evolution is more likely without having some idea of mechanism for design. Evolution posits several, ID none."

"I don't understand how ultimate causality applies to the study of evolution. I think you are asking for more than I'm discussing here."

If ID posits no mechanism, and Evolution posits no cause, then what's the problem? They are obviously speaking to different questions.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 25th, 2008 at 2:01 pm by scripto
"If ID posits no mechanism, and Evolution posits no cause, then what's the problem? They are obviously speaking to different questions.

That would be fine if ID stuck to pre-singularity events or some kind of undetectable quantum manipulation and quit sticking its nose into evolutionary biology. I think Paul Davies said that somewhere someone or something has to move the particles. Until that smoking gun is found, ID has to take a backseat to evolutionary theory with its accessible historical record and proposed mechanisms of descent with modification and common ancestry.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 25th, 2008 at 4:28 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"That would be fine if ID stuck to pre-singularity events or some kind of undetectable quantum manipulation and quit sticking its nose into evolutionary biology."

I didn't mean to pick on evolutionary biology, but if you insist....

So science not only defines the terms and presuppositions but it also dictates who plays the game and how scientific data may be used. This sounds like a closed religious group. If you don't subscribe to our creed, you can't worship with us. I understand that. No ID heretics allowed in the Church of Evolution. Irenaeus once said that heretics always misuse the Scriptures. The ID heretics are using data from science against the very evolutionary creed which the data are supposed to prove. Shame on them! Call out the thought police!

"Until that smoking gun is found, ID has to take a backseat to evolutionary theory with its accessible historical record and proposed mechanisms of descent with modification and common ancestry."

So the search for the "smoking gun" must be done from a presuppositional "back seat" with both hands tied around their backs. That's clever. Presuppose that all historic events must have a material cause or it isn't "science" even though the evolutionist cannot say what caused material. I wish we could get away with that in theology.

Hence the problem in a nutshell: With the invocation of methodological materialism, science puts itself in the intellectual driver's seat and forces all other modes of knowing to the back seat. (In truth, it shoves them out the passenger door and into the ditch.) Nice power move. No wonder the debate has degenerated into power politics, propaganda, and the courts!

I posit:

1. The sentence - "A natural event must have a natural cause" is either a) tautology, and therefore nonsense, or b) an unprovable statement and therefore not science..

2. As b) an unprovable statement, it is philosophically the same as the sentence "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," which likewise cannot be proven.

3. The former is presuppositional atheism, the latter is presuppositional theism.

4. The former presupposes that matter is able to cause itself; the latter presupposes that matter must have an immaterial cause.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 25th, 2008 at 7:05 pm by scripto
"So science not only defines the terms and presuppositions but it also dictates who plays the game and how scientific data may be used. This sounds like a closed religious group. If you don't subscribe to our creed, you can't worship with us. I understand that. No ID heretics allowed in the Church of Evolution. Irenaeus once said that heretics always misuse the Scriptures. The ID heretics are using data from science against the very evolutionary creed which the data are supposed to prove. Shame on them! Call out the thought police!

Well, I'd like the NBA to lower the basket to 7 feet so I could play professional ball, but it ain't gonna happen. The ID'ers have proposed nothing specific enough or testable enough for biology to lower its standards enough to let them play. The system has evolved enough to be in the main self correcting and from this outsider's perspective, requires a certain amount of rigor. If Dembski wants to be taken seriously he needs to submit his work to the proper mathematical, statistical and information theory journals. Behe needs to work out some sort of research agenda to test his ideas on Irreducible Complexity. They don't even try. Once they start waving fistfuls of rejection slips around, I might just help you hide them fro the thought police.

"So the search for the "smoking gun" must be done from a presuppositional "back seat" with both hands tied around their backs. That's clever. Presuppose that all historic events must have a material cause or it isn't "science" even though the evolutionist cannot say what caused material. I wish we could get away with that in theology.

Really? I thought you could get away with anything in theology. There goes that potential career path. The "back seat" analogy is a better one than I thought because the ID'ers are just pounting in the back, crying "Are we there yet?" while someone else does the driving. Thanks for firming up that analogy. I'll use it every chance I get.

"1. The sentence - "A natural event must have a natural cause" is either a) tautology, and therefore nonsense, or b) an unprovable statement and therefore not science.."

I believe that it is more in the line of a reasonably inferred methodology than some sort of all encompassing truth. So far, so good, anyway. How about "past experience has shown that the best approach to explaining natural events is to look for natural causes?" I didn't really think science deals in "proof".

"2. As b) an unprovable statement, it is philosophically the same as the sentence "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," which likewise cannot be proven.

3. The former is presuppositional atheism, the latter is presuppositional theism.

4. The former presupposes that matter is able to cause itself; the latter presupposes that matter must have an immaterial cause.

Jeez. I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm just looking for the best explanation for the progression of life on this planet. I realize this has religious implications but I don't see why the evolution of life through natural processes presupposes atheism any more than rain falling from the sky or the earth revolving around the sun.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 25th, 2008 at 8:18 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"Thanks for firming up that analogy. I'll use it every chance I get.'

Theology is more rigorous than you imagine, though imagination is not something I would expect from a materialist. ; ) (emoticon indicating friendly exchange of cheap irrelevency for the sake of levity)

No charge for the auto analogy, but it may backfire on you, since you are running logically lean.

Neither the evolutionary hypothesis nor methodological materialism/naturalism actually generates data. Valid scientific experiments and observations generate data. Are you suggesting that the only authorized interpreters of scientific data are those actually generating the data?

"How about "past experience has shown that the best approach to explaining natural events is to look for natural causes?" I didn't really think science deals in "proof".

You're right. Mathematics deals in proof; science deals in evidence.

So "past experience" leads one to conclude that the best approach to explaining natural events is to look for natural causes."

Based on past experience, would we have looked beyond Newtonian physics?

What if an event is rare or unique? Does reliance on "past experience" automatically rule out rare or unique events as impossible?

If this is the "best approach" does this suggest that it is not the only approach?

If it is not the only approach, are there areas of knowledge and inquiry where this causal presupposition would not be the best approach?

Is it truly being objective to limit the range of possible causes, especially when dealing with historical events (as opposed to empirical events in a controlled experiment in which the cause is part of the experiment)?

Is it even necessary to make causal limitations?

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 25th, 2008 at 8:34 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla
" If Dembski wants to be taken seriously he needs to submit his work to the proper mathematical, statistical and information theory journals. Behe needs to work out some sort of research agenda to test his ideas on Irreducible Complexity. They don't even try. Once they start waving fistfuls of rejection slips around, I might just help you hide them fro the thought police."

If the assertion "they don't even try" is true, I agree with this statement. I think they need to make the case that they are being systematically excluded on political grounds.

Then again, academic politics being what it is (and I am personally familiar with the politics of chemistry and its journals), things may not be as crystal clear as a fistful of rejection slips.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 26th, 2008 at 1:02 am by Lloyd Barrester
Have you heard about this case?

In Florida , an atheist became incensed over the preparation of Easter and Passover holidays. He decided to contact his lawyer about the discrimination inflicted on atheists by the constant celebrations afforded to Christians and Jews with all their holidays while atheists had no holiday to celebrate.

The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the long passionate presentation by the lawyer, the Judge banged his gavel and declared, 'Case dismissed!'

The lawyer immediately stood and objected to the ruling and said, 'Your honor, how can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter and many other o bserva nces. Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah...yet my client and all other atheists have no such holiday!'

The judge leaned forward in his chair and simply said, 'Obviously your client is too confused to even know about, much less celebrate his own atheists' holiday!'

The lawyer pompously said, 'Your Honor, we are unaware of any such holiday for atheists. Just when might that holiday be, your Honor?'

The judge said, 'Well it comes every year on exactly the same date---April 1st! Since our calendar sets April 1st as 'April Fools Day,' consider that Psalm 14:1 states, 'The fool says in his heart, there is no God.' Thus, in my opinion, if your client says there is no God, then by scripture, he is a fool, and April 1st is his holiday! Now have a good day and get out of my courtroom!!

Way to go, Judge! AMEN

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 26th, 2008 at 7:51 am by Rev. William M. Cwirla
Snopes.com is your friend for all things on the internet.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/atheist.asp

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 29th, 2008 at 2:00 am by malcolm

Human activities can and do destroy the products of those millions of tiny cumulative changes in an mere decades - an eyeblink in terms of geological and evolutionary time."

We human beings seem to really mess up evolution. It's hard to believe we're part of the process, but then we exercise intelligence, so we can't be part of the process.

You misunderstand or misrepresent what evolution is. Evolution is what happens when living things interact with their environment (which includes other living things, like humans). Saying we "mess up evolution" assumes there is a plan or design to be messed up. All we are doing is making massive rapid changes to the environment of species living today. Some species will thrive in the new environments we create (think chickens, sheep, rats, roaches, corn, apples), others will fail and go extinct (think large carnivores, forest and jungle denizens,slow growing trees). Intelligence or lack of it is irrelevant except in our own species' case. Whether humans will successfully adapt to the new world we seem to be creating remains to be seen.

The pure evolutionists answer to Q3 and 4 would involve "evolved empathy"....

I take it then that racism, would be a positive trait, evolutionarily speaking.

That would depend on the context, and what you mean by 'positive'. The survival value of any trait depends on the environment in which it is expressed

In the small tribal societies where our psyches evolved racism (roughly defined as preferring people like yourself to people who look or behave very differently) would tend to strengthen intra-group bonds and make for cohesive groups - which might survive better than groups with less tendency to help each other. So, in that limited environment, racism might be a trait that helped survival. But in the very different environment today (large multiracial groups) racism causes otherwise avoidable conflict and associated waste of resources - so it is a negative trait.

"That trait translates empirically into the fact that we tend to feel good when we help other...."

I wonder where the feeling of transcendence and the existence of a divine being comes from. Most folks seem to have one, at least until most recent times.

I wonder that too - but I'm sure there's an explanation to be found if we look hard enough.

Perhaps we've evolved beyond that, thanks to science.

So now you have a beef against all science( not just evolutionary theory) because it's taken away the "feeling of transcendence". That's more honest than a lot of what I hear from the religionist camp - and I can understand it.

I still feel a sense of wonder at the size and complexity and beauty of the world around me,and I'd hate to lose that awe. But I dont feel I have to credit it's existence to some mystical, unsubstantiated 'other'.

When it comes down to the line - you can't prove that your god exists, any more than I can prove that he doesn't. And a sense of the divine, or feeling of transcendence does not constitute proof.

"I find this explanation simpler, and hence more likely to be true...."

Ah yes, you can't beat Occam's razor for a nice close shave with the truth. (William of Occam was a Franciscan friar, by the way.)

Absolutely. And his being a monk has nothing to do with the validity of his argument or the usefulness of his razor. I'll take truth where I find it :)

Which is simpler: To say that nothing somehow turned itself into everything or that God made everything out of nothing?

To say that a god made everything out of nothing you first have to explain where the god came from.

So the question should really be "Which is simpler: to say

a) The universe came into existence through a process that we do not (yet) have an explanation for.

or b) A fantastically complex god spontaneously came into being through a process that we do not (yet) have an explanation for and then created the universe through another process that we do not (yet) have an explanation for .

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 29th, 2008 at 8:42 am by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"Intelligence or lack of it is irrelevant except in our own species' case. Whether humans will successfully adapt to the new world we seem to be creating remains to be seen."

So human beings are a special case that creates stuff. This religion of evolution gets more interesting by the minute.

"I wonder that too - but I'm sure there's an explanation to be found if we look hard enough."

Can't wait. Of course if you rule out certain causes and explanation a priori, you might be staring at the evidence and not know it.

"So now you have a beef against all science( not just evolutionary theory) because it's taken away the "feeling of transcendence". That's more honest than a lot of what I hear from the religionist camp - and I can understand it.'

No beef against science here. Studied it, loved it, still keep up with it. Science does make a crappy religion, as much as religion makes a crappy science.

"To say that a god made everything out of nothing you first have to explain where the god came from.

So the question should really be "Which is simpler: to say

a) The universe came into existence through a process that we do not (yet) have an explanation for.

or b) A fantastically complex god spontaneously came into being through a process that we do not (yet) have an explanation for and then created the universe through another process that we do not (yet) have an explanation for.'

As I said, Science makes a crappy religion, but you are certainly entitled to your dogma. The statements as posited beg the question of cause. Statement a) would have to posit another universe which caused this universe ad infinitum to infinite regress. Statement b) misrepresents the religious presupposition that "God" by definition is without cause.

Science would have us believe that a fantastically complex and orderly universe came into existence out of nothing entirely on its own by means of a process we do not (yet) have an explanation for.

In other words, nothing through a process of natural causes caused everything.

I know religious dogma when I see it.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 29th, 2008 at 10:02 am by malcolm

"Intelligence or lack of it is irrelevant except in our own species' case. Whether humans will successfully adapt to the new world we seem to be creating remains to be seen."

So human beings are a special case that creates stuff. This religion of evolution gets more interesting by the minute.

Sorry - didn't realise you reserve the verb 'create' for religious use. I used it in the everyday sense that the world around us is very different from what it would be if humans did not exist, and in that limited sense much of what we see around us is our own creation. I did not mean or imply 'ex nihilo' creation.

"I wonder that too - but I'm sure there's an explanation to be found if we look hard enough."

Can't wait. Of course if you rule out certain causes and explanation a priori, you might be staring at the evidence and not know it.

I haven't ruled anything out - I just don't accept that the stories in the Bible or the Vedas or any other religious texts have equal weight with the findings of modern science. Taken as allegory - fine. But if someone tries to teach Biblical inerrancy or young earth creationism the vast array of data acquired by the human race in the millennia since the bible was compiled suggests they are simply wrong.

Science does make a crappy religion, as much as religion makes a crappy science.

Again with the "science is a religion" smear. thefreedictionary.com defines religion thus: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe." Sounds pretty much like the antithesis of Science to me.

To say that a god made everything out of nothing you first have to explain where the god came from.

....but you are certainly entitled to your dogma.

You make the bold assertion that a god exists. There is nothing dogmatic about asking you to explain the evidence for your claim. There is no 'hard' evidence - hence the reliance on faith, and logical attempts at proof.

Unfortunately for us all - those proofs appear convincing to those who already believe and lacking to those of us who already lack faith.

Science would have us believe that a fantastically complex and orderly universe came into existence out of nothing entirely on its own by means of a process we do not (yet) have an explanation for.

In other words, nothing through a process of natural causes caused everything.

If I should ever need a classic example of a straw man argument this will be it. I've saved it and will use it with full attribution should the need ever arise.

It's been interesting - but we're not going anywhere with this. I'll read any reply you post but I think I'm done here

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 29th, 2008 at 10:27 am by Rev. William M. Cwirla
"If I should ever need a classic example of a straw man argument this will be it. I've saved it and will use it with full attribution should the need ever arise."

No charge for the attribution. You'll still have to prove how that's a straw man.

Either one must posit:

a) Matter always existed, and there is no beginning.
b) Matter did not always exist, and nothing became everything in the beginning.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 29th, 2008 at 12:05 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla

Sorry - didn't realise you reserve the verb 'create' for religious use. I used it in the everyday sense that the world around us is very different from what it would be if humans did not exist, and in that limited sense much of what we see around us is our own creation. I did not mean or imply 'ex nihilo' creation.

Sorry - I was assuming an evolved sense of the ironic. I was marveling at the idea of man evolving to adapt to a world of his own creation, which would then be subverted by his further attempts to overcome that natural forces that create diversity in response to change. I was also delighting in the fact that we agree that human beings are distinct from the rest of the natural world - both creatively and destructively.

I haven't ruled anything out - I just don't accept that the stories in the Bible or the Vedas or any other religious texts have equal weight with the findings of modern science.

Not ruling anything out, but certainly biased when it comes to the evidence. That's honest. Again, we would agree that there is no such thing as a neutral observer.

Taken as allegory - fine

Are we talking about the Bible as a whole, or Genesis 1-11?

But if someone tries to teach Biblical inerrancy or young earth creationism the vast array of data acquired by the human race in the millennia since the bible was compiled suggests they are simply wrong.

Who invoked Biblical inerrancy or young earth creationism in this discussion?

Again with the "science is a religion" smear.

My bad. I'll take the yellow card on that one. Actually it's science as sole arbiter and judge of metaphysical truth that's the problem.

You make the bold assertion that a god exists. There is nothing dogmatic about asking you to explain the evidence for your claim.

I make a necessary presupposition. All the following statements are presuppositional. Take your pick:

a) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

b) In the beginning nothing became everything.

c) There is no beginning and everything has always been.

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 29th, 2008 at 1:31 pm by scripto
"I was marveling at the idea of man evolving to adapt to a world of his own creation, which would then be subverted by his further attempts to overcome that natural forces that create diversity in response to change."

I'm sure we'll try but evolution is smarter than we are.

" I was also delighting in the fact that we agree that human beings are distinct from the rest of the natural world - both creatively and destructively."

Not distinct, maybe unique, but that seems to be a matter of degree more than anything. I still don't see anything unnatural about human technology.

Why does ID reasoning always devolve to a discussion about ultimate causation, the ultimate god of the gaps argument? If ID can't begin to account for observed phenomenon, what's the point of pushing it into areas where there is little or no background information?

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: April 29th, 2008 at 5:23 pm by Rev. William M. Cwirla

Why does ID reasoning always devolve to a discussion about ultimate causation, the ultimate god of the gaps argument?

I think the "god in the gaps" charge is straw man and quite beside the point. I don't see anyone invoking "it's a miracle!" when it comes the observation of natural processes. An empirical scientist would throw out any unique, non-reproducible observation as statistically insignificant. That doesn't rule out unique, one-time, non-reproducible events, it just means that these can't be studied by naturalistic methodism.

I think the ID discussion inevitably goes to ultimate cause because it's the proverbial elephant in the middle of the presuppositional room. Intelligent Design implies an intelligent Designer; naturalistic methodism rules a designer out of scientific bounds by definition. ID begs the question of how it happened; naturalistic methodism begs the questions of who/what caused it and why.

To say that this is a "devolution" of the discussion is pejorative. I would imagine that a Darwinian evolutionist would welcome the challenge as a Hegelian antithesis to the evolutionary thesis potentially leading to a new synthesis in the grand evolution of human thought. (Is devolution even possible in a world governed by evolution?)

Ultimate causality may not be a question that is answerable by science, and it may make an atheist uncomfortable, but that doesn't necessarily make it a lower level of inquiry. The question of ultimate causality deals with intentionality, purpose, meaning of existence, morality, ethics, etc. A modern "scientific" mind trained to consider only "hard" empirical evidence may have a hard time wrapping around questions that are vastly important yet beyond the scope of a discipline that is self-limited to methodological naturalism. As I wrote in my original post, there are more departments at the university than the science departments, and one would do well to learn what they have to teach and how they they think within their disciplines.

"Evolution is smarter than we are."

If evolution is indeed "smarter than we are," then the debate between "intelligent design" and "naturally smart stuff" is really a presuppositional stalemate.

Personally, I think that the concept of "design" is too subjectively slippery to quantify or measure, though I wouldn't fault Dembsky, et al for giving it the old college try. To my thinking, "design" seems to be more of a Rorschach test of what you believe - the theist sees evidence for intelligent design and a Designer, the atheist sees evidence for really smart stuff. The theistic evolutionist (of which there are many in the halls of science) would argue that the Designer made the stuff inherently "smart" in the first place.

I think the design debate would best take place within the disciplines of philosophy, theology, and metaphysics. At least there, methodological naturalism would be subject to a a critical examination of its underlying limitations as well as its philosophical, theological, and metaphysical implications. This would contribute greatly to critical thinking and human knowledge in general.

At the end of the day, I don't really mind if Richard Dawkins and other atheists use scientific data to prove their belief that there is no god. By the same token, I also have no problem with "natural theology," that is, using scientific data to give glory to God as the Creator. "Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made." (Romans 1:20) Let the chips fall where they may in the debate.

Ultimately the creation of everything out of nothing by God in the beginning is a matter of faith, something revealed not discovered. "By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear." (Hebrews 11:1) As Christians, we do not seek to "prove" the creation using science since we know that a first Cause cannot be proven by observation of subsequent causes.

Contrary to the way it is commonly argued, Christians do not believe in "creation" on the basis of an "inerrant Bible" but because it was taught and affirmed by Jesus, the One who died and rose from the dead, who claimed to be the Son of God, the creative Word by whom all things were made. Creation is not the central article of the Christian faith. Were Richard Dawkins to rise from the dead, after predicting it three times in advance, I might be more inclined to take his anti-God rants a bit more seriously. However, the ultimate fate of Richard Dawkins remains to be determined.

Speaking personally as a former chemist trained in science and mathematics, my observations in the laboratory of an ordered universe of the periodic table, quantum mechanics, molecular orbitals, DNA, proteins, etc. all were part of the creation's praise of Him who ordered all things by His Word. As a Christian, nothing that I saw or learned as a scientist undermined my faith in the grand opening sentence of the Bible - "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Re: "Expelled" Expounded

Posted On: May 01st, 2008 at 6:26 am by Pauli Ojala
Ben(jamin) Stein is under heavy artillery for 'exaggerating' or 'going easy' on the influence of evolutionism behind Nazism and Stalinism (super evolution of Lysenkoism in the Soviet Russia). But the monstrous Haeckelian type of vulgar evolutionism drove not only the 'Politics-is-applied-biology' Nazi takeover in the continental Europe, but even the nationalistic collision at the World War I. It was Charles Darwin himself, who praised and raised the monstrous German Ernst Haeckel with his still recycled embryo drawing frauds etc. in the spotlight as the greatest authority in the field of human evolution, even in the preface to his Descent of man in 1871. If Thomas Henry Huxley with his concept of 'agnostism' was Darwins bulldog in England, Haeckel was his Rotweiler in Germany.

'Kampf' was a direct translation of 'struggle' from On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life (1859). Seinen Kampf. His application.

Catch 22: Haeckel's 140 years old fake embryo drawings have been mindlessly recycled for the 'public understanding of science' (PUS) in most biology text books until this millennium. Despite factum est that Haeckel's crackpot raging Recapitulation/Biogenetic Law and functioning gill slits of human embryos have been at the ethical tangent race hygiene/eugenics/genocide, infanticide, and Freudian psychoanalysis (subconscious atavisms). Dawkins is the Oxford professor for PUS - and should gather the courage of Stephen Jay Gould who could feel ashamed about it.

Some edited quotes from my conference posters and articles defended and published in the field of bioethics and history of biology (and underline/edit them a 'bit'):
http://www.helsinki.fi/~pjojala/Asian_Bioethics.pdf
http://www.helsinki.fi/~pjojala/Haeckelianlegacy_ABC5.pdf

The marriage laws were once erected not only in the Nazi Germany but also in the multicultural states of America upon the speculation that the mulatto was a relatively sterile and shortlived hybrid. The absence of blood transfusion between "white" and "colored races" was self evident (Hailer 1963, p. 52).

The first law on sterilization in US had been established in 1907 in Indiana, and 23 similar laws had been passed in 15 States and sterilization was practiced in 124 institutions in 1921 (Mattila 1996; Hietala 1985 p. 133; these were the times of IQ-tests under Gould's scrutiny in his Mismeasure of Man 1981). By 1931 thirty states had passed sterization laws in the US (Reilly 1991, p. 87). Typically, the operations hit blacks the most in the US, poor women in the Europe, and often the victims were never even told they had been sterilized.

Mendelism outweighed recapitulation (embryos climbing up their evolutionary tree through fish-, amphibian- and reptilian stages), but that merely smoothened the way for the brutal 1930's biolegislation - that quickly penetrated practically all Western countries. The laws were copied from country to country. The A-B-O blood groups, haemophilia, eye colours etc. were found to be inherited in a Mendelian fashion by 1910. So also the complex traits and social (mis)behaviour such as alcoholism, schizophrenia, manic depression, criminality, rebelliousness, artistic sense, pauperism, racial differences, inherited scholarship (and its converse, feeble-mindedness) were all thought to be determined by one or two genes. Mendelism was "experimental" and quantitative, and its exaggeration outweighed the more cautious biometry operating on smaller variations, not discontinuous leaps. Its advocates boldly claimed that these problems could be done away within a few generations through selection, persisted (although most biologists must have known that defective genes could not be eliminated, even with the most intense forced sterilizations and marriage restrictions due to recessive genes and synergism. Nevertheless, these laws were held until 1970's and were typically changed only when the abortion legislation were released (1973).

So the American laws were pioneering endeavours. In Europe Denmark passed the first sterilization legislation in Europe (1929). Denmark was followed by Switzerland, Germany that had felt to the hands of Hitler and Gobineu, and other Nordic countries: Norway (1934), Sweden (1935), Finland (1935), and Iceland (1938 ) (Haller 1963, pp 21-57; 135-9; Proctor 1988, p. 97; Reilly 1991, p. 109). Seldom is it mentioned in the popular media, that the first outright race biological institution in the world was not established in Germany but in 1921 in Uppsala, Sweden (Hietala 1985, pp. 109). (I am not aware of the ethymology of the 'Up' of the ancient city from Plinius' Ultima Thule, however.) In 1907 the Society for Racial Hygiene in Germany had changed its name to the Internationale Gesellschaft f�r Rassenhygiene, and in 1910 Swedish Society for Eugenics (S�llskap f�r Rashygien) had become its first foreign affiliate (Proctor 1988, p. 17). Today, Swedish state church is definitely the most liberal in the face of the world.

Hitler's formulation of the differences between the human races was affected by the brilliant sky-blue eyed Ernst Haeckel (Gasman 1971, p. xxii), praised and raised by Darwin. At the top of the unilinear progression were usually the "Nordics", a tall race of blue-eyed blonds. Haeckel's position on the 'Judenfrage' was assimilation and Expelled-command from their university chairs, not yet an open elimination. But was it different only in degree, rather than kind?

In 1917 the immigration of "defective" groups was forbidden even in the United States by a law. In 1921 the European immigration was diminished to 3% based on the 1910 census. Eventually, in the strategical year of 1924 the finest hour of eugenics had come and the fatal law was passed by Congress. It diminished immigration to 2% of the foreign-born from each country based on the 1890 census in order to preserve the "nordic" balance in population, and was hold through World War II until 1965 (Hietala 1985, p. 132).

Richard Lewontin writes:"The leading American idealogue of the innate mental inferiority of the working class was, however, H.H. Goddard, a pioneer of the mental testing movement, the discoverer of the Kallikak family,
and the administrant of IQ-tests to immigrants that found 83 % of the Jews, 80% of the Hungarians, 79% of the Italians, and 87% of the the Russians to be feebleminded." (1977, p. 13.) Regarding us Finns, Finnish emmigrants put the cross on the box reserved for the "yellow" group (Kemil�inen 1993, p. 1930), until 1965.

Germany was the most scientifically and culturally advanced nation of the world upon opening the riddles at the close of the nineteenth century. And she went Full Monty.

Today, developmental biologists are anticipating legislation of laws that would define the do's and dont's. In England, they are fertilizing human embryos for research purposes and pipetting chimera embryos of humans and monkeys, 'legally'. The legislation should not distract individual researchers from their personal awareness of responsibility. A permissive law merely defines the ethical minimum. The lesson is that a law is no substitute for morals and that dissidents should not be intimidated.

I am suspicious over the burial of the Kampf (Struggle). The idea of competition is innate in the modern society. It is the the opposite view in a 180 degree angle to the Judaeo-Christian ideal of agapee (contra epithumia, eros, filia & storge) (ahava in Hebrew), that I personally cheriss. The latter sees free giving, altruism, benevolence and self sacrificing love as the beginning, motivation, and sustainer of the reality.

pauli.ojala@gmail.com
Biochemist, drop-out (Master of Sciing)
http://www.helsinki.fi/~pjojala/Expelled-ID.htm